hey you guys : thanks alot for all the tips and info...man alot of different views out their for sure...and its good to here them all , thanks . <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...mind you the trioxane works good for me vince g. as i carry them in regular camp kit/rucksack and not part of my personal survival tin... it may not work well for someone else , everyone is different... vince g. 11b inf..