Ken--for 20 some years a Oldtown Pathfinder then for the last three a Bell Prospector in Kevlar so my old knees can make the carry..in Scouts late 50's early 60's we had Oldtowns but i don't know what kind except they were made without seats.clever idea as it kept us low, kneeling on the wood ribs was a hassle but we were kids and made do.--by the way i took your advice and will get a poncho from Campmor--