I'm former LEO and for some reason, being LEO carries more weight than it should with a lot of people. A majority of cops are poor shots and don't know squat about firearms, although they all think they're experts. I was the firearms instructor for my department, and I have to disagree with the statement that 20 gauge recoils less IF YOU'RE TALKING DEFENSE LOADS. 20 ga. defense loads use smaller buck sizes (less penetration - not good) and come in high brass loadings. 12 ga. defense loads come in low brass offerings and are designed for women and small statured men. They come in 00 and 000 loads, which means excellent penetration and larger wound size per pellet than the typical #2 or #3 Buck in 2 3/4" and 3" 20 ga. buckshot loads. In side-by-side comparison, comparing defense load to defense load, the low recoil 12 gauge loads recoil less. Noticeably less. Especially when compared to smaller framed 20 ga. pumps. I would much rather shoot 2 3/4" low recoil 00 buckshot from an 870 than 20 ga. high brass buck loads. My little wife agrees. I also prefer the far more effective wound ballistics from the 12 ga. low recoil tactical buck or slug loads.

If you're talking low brass game loads in each, then that's a different story, but neither load is too hard on the shoulder.

I've found 12 gauge loads to pattern more effectively overall and in the game field 12 ga. 6 shot works fine on late season pheasant, whereas I moved up to 4 shot in 20 ga, to get the same penetration. The 12 seems to pattern better and the increase in velocity on high brass load 12's over high brass loaded 20's translates into better penetration within a given shot weight on the birds. For over thirty years I used a 20 ga. on pheasants, but recently decided to move back to 12 ga, for the above stated reasons. It's just more universal.

Not knowing the terrain features in your area, I'd be hard pressed to say what rifle/shotgun fits your scenario. Is actual self defense a factor or not? You sure won't be killing too many deer or birds or small game within the city limits of Minneapolis. You need more experience and I'm still not sure of your actual uses. In my first post, I took your question to mean firarms for self defense and I responded accordingly. Having grown up in a very high crime city, a survival gun meant something that came between me and perdition and for everyday carry, that translates into a concealable pistol. For both on duty and off and now as an ex-LEO management consultant, that for me was/is a custom 1911. It's never failed me, conceals well, has terrific ergonomics, and contrary to current thinking, I was never undergunned with it, even when facing multiple assailants. If you're only getting something to put meat on the table, any 12 ga, 20 ga and maybe a good 22 is all you need. If you intend to defend yourself or shoot game animals at distances exceeding 75-100 yards, then other things are in order.

Pistols are close range defense weapons. I disagree with the adage that a pistol is used only to fight your way to a rifle. Most city/suburban dwellers (like you) depend on a pistol as their PRIMARY means of self defense if they have a carry license. In any jurisdiction I'm familiar with, walking around with a rifle gets the officers attention in a hurry (and your neighbors too) and may get you more trouble than it's worth. Leaving a rifle or handgun in a car is a sure way to lose it when either a) the car is broken into, or b) the car is stolen.

By the way, the Mini-14 takes magazines, not clips. Clips may be used to feed the magazine, but the feed device on a Mini 14 (and AR-15, FAL, 1911, Beretta 92, etc.) is a magazine.


Edited by rly45acp (05/07/08 07:12 PM)