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#98280 - 06/24/07 02:01 AM No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home.
DeathtoToasters Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Southern California
Ok Here is the situation I have with my new home. I have no basement, and no means to dig a in ground shelter. The reasons are because of a pool in the backyard and pipes running under the ground everywhere.

So reading all the ki4u.com documents that the government put out on the constructing and planning of in home shelters. All the documents talk about finding the most inner room in the home (if no basement is available)

Well for me this is a small storage area in the exact middle of the home. Ok, now that I found a space, I need to figure out how to secure this area from any fallout that may happen.

Putting cinderblocks or concrete is not an option. So I had a wild idea.

I know the object is to create thickness between the walls. So I would think that the density of the thickness, the material that is in between the outside and us, is what matters.

So what are some thoughts on creating that barrier.

One wild idea I had was to get some of those lead aprons that are used in xray rooms. Those should protect pretty well while also not giving away a foot of thickness, like cinder blocks would.

Now I am am looking for a good compromise, I know concrete would be better, but I don't have that option as I will need to put 6 people in there (me, wife and 4 kids) and the space is not that big.

So any other ideas would be great.

Thanks
_________________________
"Death to Toasters"-John Connor

"All Hail the Power of Bauer"

"Only the Paranoid Survive" - Andy Grove

"Why is it called the American Dream? Because you have to be ASLEEP to believe it!" - George Carlin

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#98302 - 06/24/07 02:18 PM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home. [Re: DeathtoToasters]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
Unless you have heavy steel studs in your walls forget thr lead idea. I have built X-Ray rooms in hospitals and they require special engineering and materials your house wan't built with.
Are you building with nuclear detonations, or dirty bombs in mind or are you thinking more along the lines of protection from bad guys?
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

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#98309 - 06/24/07 04:01 PM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home. [Re: raydarkhorse]
DeathtoToasters Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Southern California
Nuclear and dirty is what I am trying for.
Sounded like a good idea in the car!
_________________________
"Death to Toasters"-John Connor

"All Hail the Power of Bauer"

"Only the Paranoid Survive" - Andy Grove

"Why is it called the American Dream? Because you have to be ASLEEP to believe it!" - George Carlin

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#98311 - 06/24/07 05:39 PM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home. [Re: DeathtoToasters]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I don't know if its really true (never saw it), or if there were further problems, but when I was a kid in the fifties, it was said that a guy had built a bomb shelter under his driveway. He apparently ripped up the driveway, installed the shelter, covered it up and relaid the driveway over it.

Wouldn't the weight of a car (or cars) rolling and sitting on top of it tend to cause problems?

Anyway, I'm just throwing this old story out there.

Sue

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#98316 - 06/24/07 11:35 PM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Hom [Re: DeathtoToasters]
Anonymous
Unregistered


When the bomb is going to drop you should have at least a few days notice. The solution is simple. Hire a transport container, drain your pool, place the container in the empty pool and cover with dirt. Instant bomb shelter that takes only a 12-24 hrs to construct and fit out.


Edited by bentirran (06/24/07 11:37 PM)

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#98317 - 06/25/07 12:20 AM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home. [Re: DeathtoToasters]
cajun_kw Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Southern California
If you are in the blast zone for any nuclear weapon you cannot modify your usrrent structure to withstand the blast. Well ...I guess you could ...maybe ...'cuz anything is possible with enough money ...but realistically ...no.
But ..if you want a "secure" shielded" space that will provide sufficient shielding from ionizing radiation ...then yes ...you coul do it. And lead is indeed your preferred choice. Its NOT the cheapest or lightest ...but it is the thinnest. It takes more water, concrete or poly to provide the same shielding as a few inches of leach can provide. Which makes it easier to cover up with the design of the house. However ...lead is heavy... and thus needs support both vertically AND horizontally. But you could (at least in a lot of slab-on-grade homes) cut the floor ....backfit footings to carry the weight and create a steel framework to hold the lead. Commercially, you can buy lead in sheets and bricks. I don't know where you'd get it, but they do make it.
Underground , though, would be a better and more cost effective location in the long run...since its easier to design for blast resistance but just as important as there is significant concussion form a blast that crush below grade structures. That is why many of them are shaped like a sphere or an egg since the design for naturally is stronger.
I like the driveway idea mentioned above ... 'cept its hard to hide what you are doing from your neighbors. But is close ...not much in the way of utility services typically runs under it and you could possibly retrofit an interior egress point that could connect to it by underground tunnel. Though all good rabbit holes need at least two entrance/exit paths. As for cars driving or parking on top ...that can be resolved with a properly engineered slab that when finished would look like everyone elses driveway.
There are no cheap alternatives ... well ...without sacrificing something.
Personally ...I consider nuclear attack farther down the lsit than other potential disaster scenarios ....and strive to address being prepared for them and then ..once done ...would try to confront that possibility. And I would chose underground. There are several frefab systems available and given that I would covet the secrecy factor I'd install min before my house was built and would chose a more remote location so as to have fewer people that could see what I'm doing .... that way I can chose who knows my preparatins and who doesn't.
Good Luck !

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#98318 - 06/25/07 12:37 AM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home. [Re: cajun_kw]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
John here is a site for an above ground shelter from FEMA you can tell your neighbors is a pool house / storage shed.
http://www.officialdisclosure.com/SM-11.pdf
Just a word of warning though when people get it in their minds to do the shelter thing they have thoughts of being in the shelter for months emerging into a brave new world to carve out their place in it. To eliminate these ideas try a small experiment, lock you and your family in the house for 3 days with no lights, phones, water, heat, cooling, or any of your modern conveniences and watch what happens.
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

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#98326 - 06/25/07 01:58 AM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Hom [Re: Susan]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
Wouldn't the weight of a car (or cars) rolling and sitting on top of it tend to cause problems?


Not really. Many drainage culverts & small bridges are effectively small shelter sections.

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#98327 - 06/25/07 01:59 AM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Home. [Re: raydarkhorse]
DeathtoToasters Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Southern California
Wow the wealth of ideas is amazing. It puts such a warm smile on my face. I mean talking disaster situations and not having anyone laugh, well at least being on the floor and laughing, it just heart warming!!

What I am really concerned about is not the actual blast of the bomb, but fallout.

With that in mind, from what I have read, fallout should take, normally about 12 hours to 3-4 days after the initial blast.

I live in the Coachella valley, Palm Springs area, of southern California. So I don't believe that this area would be a prime blast target for any terrorist. Now saying that does not mean I would feel as safe as if I lived in northern Idaho, but I don't think some people in the desert is what they are worried about.

The main area around us that would useful for someone to get to would be 29 Palms Military Base. The are about 140 miles away, but they are up a mountain range and then the area drops back down in elevation. So they are usually about 20 degrees cooler then we are down here in the valley.

The dropping of a shelter in the pool is a unique idea, so is the digging under the driveway, but neither is economically feasible.

I understand that the lead is still a good way to go, but for some reason I keep thinking that if I remember correctly, those lead aprons can't weigh that much. At least from whenever I got xrays. lol

Could I now put some hooks or something of the sort in the walls, and hang up the aprons when needed.

Like I said in the beginning, I know I am not covering every inch of area, but I am looking for the best situation I can get away with.

I plan on getting another house in the next year or so, with that house, I am looking at building some type of basement.
_________________________
"Death to Toasters"-John Connor

"All Hail the Power of Bauer"

"Only the Paranoid Survive" - Andy Grove

"Why is it called the American Dream? Because you have to be ASLEEP to believe it!" - George Carlin

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#98329 - 06/25/07 02:15 AM Re: No Basement for In Ground Shelter, 2 Story Hom [Re: DeathtoToasters]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
It's mass that stops the gamma radiation. Whether that mass is in the form of lead, concrete or dirt doesn't matter, but you need mass between you and the source. If the lead aprons don't weigh that much(?) then they probably won't be good protection.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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