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#95043 - 05/19/07 03:37 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.
Quote:

Feb 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

TO THE alarm of environmentalists and park managers alike, interest in the great outdoors seems to be tailing off among young Americans. The country's extensive system of national parks includes some of the most photographed and best preserved landscapes on earth—like Yosemite Valley in California, the crenellated Teton Range in Wyoming, Old Faithful geyser in Yellowstone National Park or the white edifice of Mount Rainier in Washington state. But attendance at the parks is falling.…


I begin my post with the above quote with much trepidation. I would hate to contradict the wise counsel already given about lack of knowledge, proper equipment, seeking advice, etc., etc. Most of the advice given has been sound and well thought out, my only concern is that much of it seems slanted towards a, "risk management", or fear of future liability angle. It's true that in this day and age of multi-million dollar lawsuits, only a fool would knowingly place him/herself in the position of offering bad survival advice to someone while in a paid/professional setting but let's keep things in perspective here, this is a free public internet forum by and for enthusiast's and amateurs.

I'm not espousing that we fail to discourage unsafe behaviors, but let's balance it with encouragement and enthusiastic support for the young people (or not so young), who are showing an interest in the outdoors and survival concepts.

Ziggy and Company, my advice? Do it!! Tell a responsible adult where you will be, bring the proper equipment, plan out your adventure on paper and have a great time!


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#95045 - 05/19/07 04:07 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I'm all for starting people with a tent in a state forest. At least so you can get used to what it feels like to not have hard walls and roof and the sounds of the night. Although I won't mock anyone who is spooked by raccoon nookie- that sounds like someone being murdered and the weapon of choice is a cat being swung by it's tail. *shivers*

Then move onto a tarp and a hammock or a bivy. Then get out of the campground. And THEN try sleeping in a primitive shelter.

My concern was and is a survival exercise with what sounds like no training, minimal experience, and having a camera rolling. My one hope is that if they do do this, they've been watching Les and not that fool with the other show.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#95048 - 05/19/07 04:31 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: ironraven]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

If Ziggy asked: "For my first outdoor experience, should I stay in a tent at a state park, or start right off with a 3 day survival trek in the Canadian wilderness?" My advice would mimic yours, but I don't think that's his question.

The question I pose to you and others, Ironraven is: If you had the authority to allow or forbid Ziggy's trip, but ONLY with the understanding that if allowed it is on his terms without modification and if forbidden there is a good chance Ziggy will move on to some other hobby (X-Box?), do you say go or stay?






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#95051 - 05/19/07 05:24 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Inability to learn from the mistakes and experiences of others is not a survival trait. Neither is over estimating your abilities, particularly when all you possess is theoretical knowledge in very limited quantities. Again, I hope I'm reading the vibe of his posts wrong, but when you ask about predators you don't know the area- hungry things that go bump in the night are the first things that most people ask about, a sign that humans are evolved from lunch. Not a the place for your first night out.

To answer "stay" or "go", I'd have to know him. If he's a pain in my butt, "go". The lesson, assuming he survives, will be learned and his genes might someday prove worthy of continuing. If he's not a pain in the butt, I'd say "stay until you learn". Or "go, but you'll have a shadow the entire way".

Or are you honestly suggesting that letting someone who sounds like he has no clue out on his own with an axe, a firearm, a camera and a couple buddies who all want to look cool on film isn't a bad idea? I would counter your question with this one: "Would you rather he went out without practical knowledge as to his environment and equipment to emulate something he's seen on television, or would you rather he had some idea of what he was doing based on practicing in his backyard and doing some research?"

Ethically, I can't toss a kid who can't swim but has seen plenty of surfer movies into the deep end of a swimming pool. I might want to, becuase I generally don't like teenagers, but I can't do it. Sure, if he doesn't panic and holds his breath, even if he sinks he can walk until his head out of the water. But I can't take that risk with a clear concious.

Heck, if I knew Ziggy had a decent manual that he'd read a few times I'd feel better about what has been proposed.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#95052 - 05/19/07 06:04 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: ironraven]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

I don't think you're reading the vibe of his posts wrong at all. I think Ziggy was hoping to get a simple 1,2,3 list of do's & dont's that he could print out, throw into his back-pack along with his Red Bull & powerbars, then head out to the great outdoors. In fact, I'll bet Ziggy punched, "survival skills" into Google and ETS came up on the first screen (try it...4th entry down for me).

To answer your question, of course I would rather he had practice and experience in a somewhat controlled environment first, but again I don't think Ziggy is interested in that.

Thinking back to my first few hiking/camping/outdoor experiences, I was ill prepared, poorly provisioned and probably wearing a cheap pair of sneakers bought out of a metal bin from the supermarket (remember those?). I made mistakes, went hungry & thirsty, got blisters on top of blisters and had a ball doing it!

I would hate to learn that Ziggy, or anyone else for that matter, went away from ETS with the impression that unless you can go toe to toe with Les Stroud, you'd better just stay home and leave the outdoor stuff to the professionals.


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#95065 - 05/19/07 02:01 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4709
Loc: SOCAL
I agree, they should do it. My only concern about the rifle is that it may suffer neglect if it rains. The video they produce may come off as a don't try this at home, look at all the mistakes we made, this is harder than it looks on TV kind of video, but at least they'll be out there doing it.

I also agree that Ziggy was looking for some easy answers to some questions that require an investment of education and time in the field to learn, but I hope he goes for it. Just don't eat any mushrooms.

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#95127 - 05/20/07 11:51 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
Themalemutekid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 351
Loc: New Jersey
I think Ziggy got scared off the forums... but hey, he asked for our help right?
_________________________
....he felt the prompting of his heritage, the desire to possess, the wild danger-love, the thrill of battle, the power to conquer or to die. Jack London

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#95129 - 05/21/07 12:14 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Themalemutekid]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4709
Loc: SOCAL
Yeah, what's with that? wink

The whole business of eating wild food is a great thing to learn, but its fraught with the reality that if you misidentify a plant it just might kill you.

Some of the guys jumped on the .22 rifle and axe issue a little much but that should have been a no big deal from Ziggy's POV. If I want to take a rifle and axe with me on an overnighter, I'm not even going to leave it behind because some guy on the internet thinks I might hurt myself.

What else? Oh, yeah, the idea that a kid with a video camera but zero survival skills is going to make a survival video could be really interesting. If it's done with the right attitude (I've never done this before but this is what the book says to do) it could be educational for both the cast and the audience. Then again, it could be a total waste of time and simply document three guys being miserable on an overnight.

Since Ziggy never came back, we'll never know.

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#95133 - 05/21/07 12:59 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Or he's lost right now, wondering why he didn't listen to the advice posted. Probably eating bullets and thinking "I should have brought something else."

I kind of hope, if he does this project, it's on YouTube or something. I need a good laugh.

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#95153 - 05/21/07 01:00 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
jdobbs2001 Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 11
My advice, do not do it. Looks like you are lacking the basic skills right now and I would recommend you spend time learning those basics first. (Classes etc.)

At your age you might think "It could not happen to me" but things can happen, and those shows like Survivor are pretty well planned out ahead of time and they have lots of responders,camera folks,doctors etc.. right behind those cameras just to make sure nothing goes wrong.


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