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#90513 - 04/06/07 02:09 AM Old but deadly rifle

In the United Kingdom we have much more restrictive gun laws than in the United States of America. Essentially guns are not a part of UK society whether they are hand guns or rifles although there is limited criminal use of hand guns in English cities such as London and Manchester. I believe that even semi-automatic assault rifles are available for ownership in the United States (without the bayonet confused ). I have had some experience in shooting a rifle called a Lee Enfield .303 MK4 rifle many many years ago and have been amazed that such a deadly weapon is available for ownership in the US. I was even more amazed to find that such weapons can be purchased for around $200 - $400. Is this weapon simply regarded as an antique or is a special license required to own such a deadly weapon? Also any comments on a comparison with more modern rifles would be welcome.

#90514 - 04/06/07 02:22 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Well Hay-ell! They even let us have pointy knives over here!

"There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men."
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

#90515 - 04/06/07 02:27 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
Blast Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
US gun laws are MOSTLY state and city-based, not federally controlled. The laws covering the rifle you are talking about vary from "No-way-at-all" to "walk-in-pay-money-walk-out-no-background-checks".

Guess which areas have higher crime rates!
(Hint: Mohandas K. Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." Mohandas K. Gandhi, Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth, Chapter XXVII, Recruiting Campaign, Page 403, Dover paperback edition, 1983."

Blogging the Borderlands
Wild Edibles Blog
I miss OBG.

#90517 - 04/06/07 02:30 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: thseng]
MDinana Offline

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2186
Loc: Bluegrass
It's not a "C&R" rifle: Collectible and Relic. I believe those are, by definition, over 100 years old (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
No special license: it's a bolt action rifle. I'm pretty sure all states allow it, just have to be over 18, not a convicted felon, and a state resident (and even residency has exceptions). Bayonets, btw, aren't outlawed usually. Yes, semi-auto are available in MOST states. A few very limited areas allow full auto (not sure how, but you can go to 'ranches'). The states that don't allow semi-auto usually allow you to keep what you had before the laws went into effect; however you're not supposed to transport an illegal rifle over state lines.

I've never shot an Enfield. Similar weapons of the time would be the 8mm Mauser (any of the variations of the 3rd Reich), the Mosin-Nagant (1891, M44, or M38 varieties). Perhaps the 1903 Springfield as well. All were bolt-action, large caliber rifles. Comparable "modern" weapons would be similar to a bolt-action hunting rifle firing a 30-06 round or 7mm (though rounds can be argued ad naseum), and I believe those rounds have been around for quite some time too.

Personally, I'm not too worried about a guy with an older rifle. He's accurate, but his rate of fire is such that you'd have a reasonable chance of getting to cover, provided you weren't his first few victims. It's the idiots with the illegal auto's that I worry about!

#90520 - 04/06/07 02:36 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
billym Offline

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
The reason we are allowed to own such deadly weapons is because the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd-A is about citizens being able to resist or overthrow a corrupt government. It is a very important and equally misunderstood concept even in our own country.

That said; I love old milspec rifles. All of the WWI and WWII rifles are great. Lee Enfield, Mauser, 1903 Springfield, M1 Garand, Schmidt Rubin and Moisin Nagant; all great reliable rifles.
The Lee Enfields, Nagants, some Schmidt Rubins and Mausers of all kinds of orgin can be had for $100-$300.
You can even get a filthy Mauser(Yugo, Turk...) or Nagant for less than $100 but you will have to clean all the cosmoline off.

All of these rifles are proven in battle and are as useful today as when they were made and are even useful for hunting larger game. Not as gnarly as a semi auto / auto of todays standards but still a reliable weapon. Some collect them for their nostalgia and some rifles with original markings and serial numbers can go for much more even thousands in the case of 1903's and Garands. Others buy them because they are inexpensive.

No special license to own and in fact in many staes you do not have to do the sale through a dealer as you do for non-C&R (curio relic).

The only "licenses" are for full auto and concealed carry in many states.

Edited by billym (04/06/07 02:51 AM)

#90521 - 04/06/07 02:37 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
ssbauer Offline

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 27
Loc: Ohio
Firearms restrictions differ depending on the state of residence (and sometimes city). In general, restrictions are based on magazine capacity. Bullet caliber is not usually considered. Some states have additional limits based on bayonet lug and muzzle break. There was a Federal limit on some firearms classified as Assault Rifles, but that law expired and has not been renewed.

The Enfield being a bolt rifle with low capacity (10 rounds or less) is legal in most states. You can get them at many gunshops. I have a Mk4 No1 and a Mk1 No3 in my collection as well as a M1 Garand and a Springfield 1903.

You must purchase a rifle or pistol from a licensed dealer/gunshop or if unlicensed person, face-to-face. I beleive you must be 21 or older for a pistol and 18 or older for a rifle. It is illegal to ship a firearm to an unlicensed person. For collectors like myself, There is a collectors license that allows buying/receiving firearms specified as collectable via mail.

PS - Enfields are C&R and as such collectable. The rule is 50 years for C&R and 100 years for antique. Antiques are typically not regulated at all.

Edited by ssbauer (04/06/07 03:04 AM)

#90523 - 04/06/07 02:39 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
desertrat1 Offline

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 144
Loc: Kingman AZ
The enfield is a great old rifle. I suppose for the most part they would be considered a collectors item. In the U.S. you don't need a license to own a rifle or hand gun. You are required to pass a background check to purchase one though. In most states you can get a permit (license) to carry a concealed weapon.

A .30 caliber rifle, be it old as the enfield is, or newer is quite deadly. The thing is here there is game that require a large caliber rifle to take. The attitudes of the UK and US are also very different. I was raised around weapons and my children have been as well, and think nothing of handling a high powered rifle. We were taught gun safety at an early age and hunted with our fathers as kids.

I was stationed in England for 4 years and had this conversation many times, and IMHO it comes down to exposure. In the UK there isn't any big game hunting and people aren't exposed to these types of weapons and generally don't see the need for them. Here hunting is still practiced by a large portion of the population and it is an important food source for many. I have an Old Remington 30-06 that has taken many dear and a few elk and antelope that one of my kids will get when I'm too old to hunt.
What you know isn't as important as knowing what you don't know

#90524 - 04/06/07 02:43 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Is there a special point you are trying to make to disparage America, or are you just trolling?

The difference in US vs UK gun laws are simple: it's one of the many perks of being a citizen, not a subject. I'm pretty sure a number of members of the House of Lords own firearms, or baring their willingness to touch something so icky and base, are able to heir bodyguards and arrange for them to be properly permitted to carry firearms to protect their Lord and Ladyships from a potentially dangerous of rabble of peasants.

Around here, we don't have the nobility, despite what some celebrities might think.

But speaking of the Enfield, it's a pretty typical weapon of the era. Good deer and general all around rifle, well designed with a smooth bolt, but I'm not as fond of the sights having grown up Springfield-designed ones. And it is part of your country's history, as much as the broadsword, Brown Bess musket and Spitfire. Rather than sneering at it, as you seem to do, take pride in it.

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

#90525 - 04/06/07 02:53 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: Blast]
desertrat1 Offline

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 144
Loc: Kingman AZ
Background checks are federally mandated. Here are a few statistics from the Department of Justice.

What you know isn't as important as knowing what you don't know

#90526 - 04/06/07 02:56 AM Re: Old but deadly rifle [Re: ]
ponder Offline

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
Weapons In America - short summary

1. Federally, there is no such thing as a weapon illegal to own. Some, however do require a $200 or $5 tax stamp. Some call this a permit. Many classes of criminals cannot own weapons.

2. States make many items illegal.

3. US law & Idaho state law allow - machine guns, silencers, short shotguns, short rifles, AOW's, bayonets, switchblades, destructive devices, brass knuckles, stun guns, tasers, impact weapons and many others. I cannot think of a weapon that cannot be owned by an honest citizen for a $200 tax stamp.

This page shows some interesting photos from my Idaho retail store. None of these are for sale on the internet.

Cliff Harrison
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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