#89233 - 03/23/07 02:51 PM
Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
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Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
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For everyone who's been dreading it (and some people who've been rooting for it for some reason), here it is: CNN's version Fox News' version and finally, the BBC they sound a little spicier than normal
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-IronRaven
When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.
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#89236 - 03/23/07 03:07 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: ironraven]
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Geezer
Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
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Those sailers in the little bitty boats must have been a long long way from the mothership if they had "lost communications," and it took a helicopter to see what was going on. Hopefully they will not be held for 444 days, or anything close to it...
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OBG
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#89243 - 03/23/07 04:03 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: OldBaldGuy]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 214
Loc: Scotland
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Again the Iranians seem to be rattling thier teeth, as before they will probabaly be held for a couple of days and released.Its just a bit of showboating to make us Brits seem a bit like invading infidels abusing the peaceful Iranian motherland. If they are not released soon it may get a bit more dodgy.
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#89265 - 03/23/07 07:09 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: ironraven]
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Old Hand
Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 817
Loc: MA
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Be thankful it wasn't an Israeli boat.
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It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.
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#89286 - 03/23/07 10:53 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: NightHiker]
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Old Hand
Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 817
Loc: MA
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Be thankful it wasn't an Israeli boat. Yep, but only if you're rooting for the Iranians. I'm not, but there would be little left of Iran if it was an Israeli boat, and we'd be up to our ears in it as well.
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It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.
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#89288 - 03/23/07 11:36 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: Malpaso]
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Newbie
Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 29
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Right. Look what Israel did to the USS Liberty and it was clearly in international waters and not in a river with the boundry running down the middle.
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#89291 - 03/23/07 11:51 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: FRERAD1776]
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Veteran
Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
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Right. Look what Israel did to the USS Liberty and it was clearly in international waters and not in a river with the boundry running down the middle.
That attack was clearly an accident. Or are you suggesting otherwise?
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#89300 - 03/24/07 01:05 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: NightHiker]
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Geezer
Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
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If you look up "don't get mad, get even" in the dictionary, you will see a picture of Israel. I don't always agree with everything Israel does, but I have always admired the way they handle any attack on them. They don't turn the other cheek, they hit back, as hard as they can...
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#89308 - 03/24/07 01:54 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: NightHiker]
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Veteran
Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
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(except for the way the prisoners were treated). Good point. "The Great Speckled Bird" speech should be mandatory reading in US schools. Pay attention to the beatings the Pueblo's crew endured.
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#89310 - 03/24/07 01:59 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: Blast]
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Addict
Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
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Ahmadinejad is pretty inflamatory, but if you watch, he's mostly a figure head. He was just recently told to cool his rhetoric on nukes by the guy who is in charge, the Ayatollah. Irans political structure is a far cry from ours, and its hard not to think "ah ha, the president, he's the guy in charge". Maybe the Iranians are playing good cop, bad cop with the West.
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A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens
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#89319 - 03/24/07 02:46 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: NightHiker]
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day hiker
Addict
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 589
Loc: ventura county, ca
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as long as we are standing behind them.
their recent excursion into lebanon showed how invincible they are not.
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#89324 - 03/24/07 03:30 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: norad45]
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Newbie
Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 29
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The survivors from the USS Liberty don't think it was "clearly an accident" but I'm sure they're biased-watching their buddies in the water and lifeboats being straffed repeatedly. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
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#89325 - 03/24/07 03:37 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: norad45]
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Veteran
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
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Right. Look what Israel did to the USS Liberty and it was clearly in international waters and not in a river with the boundry running down the middle.
That attack was clearly an accident. Or are you suggesting otherwise? even casual research into the incident clearly indicates a coordinated, deliberate attack on a clearly marked US navy ship by the israeli air force and torpedo boats. back to the original post. i highly doubt anything will arise from this incident, at least i hope not. maybe the brits were probing iranian waters and the iraninas are flexing a little muscle. seems like politics as usual but likely a pretty stupid move on both sides.
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#89327 - 03/24/07 03:56 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: FRERAD1776]
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Geezer
Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
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I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of this incident, but I am having a hard time getting a mental picture of "..repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon...concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes..."
I wonder how one attacks just an antenna with rockets and napalm???
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#89331 - 03/24/07 04:23 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: OldBaldGuy]
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Newbie
Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 29
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I wonder how one attacks just an antenna with rockets and napalm???
You're misquoting. The article said concentrating fire on antennas and comunication.
Ya think it might be to prevent a distress call from going out?
If your interested there are many survivor accounts available to read.
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#89332 - 03/24/07 04:27 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: FRERAD1776]
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Newbie
Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 29
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#89333 - 03/24/07 04:43 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: FRERAD1776]
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Newbie
Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 29
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The “Moorer Commission” (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings: “We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: 1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two- hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of sev- enty percent, in a crew of 294); 2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time un- marked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels; 3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the ma- chine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded; 4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to de- stroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967; 5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American ser- vicemen and an act of war against the United States; 6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue sup- port while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is sup- ported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division com- 23 mander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack; 7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic ef- forts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government; 8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people; 9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this at- tack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack; 10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty at- tack; 11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace; 12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are un- willing to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this pol- icy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States. WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions: FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operat- ing with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel; SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States inves- tigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the res- cue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they ex- posed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation. We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003. Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret. Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps Merlin Staring Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret., Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy, James Akins Ambassador James Akins, Ret., Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia”
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#89336 - 03/24/07 05:14 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: FRERAD1776]
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Geezer
Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
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OK, my error. Still, it seems that concentrating on anything with napalm is going to get a lot more than just that one thing. Your guess as to why sounds right on to me...
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#89339 - 03/24/07 10:56 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: LED]
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Veteran
Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
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even casual research into the incident clearly indicates a coordinated, deliberate attack on a clearly marked US navy ship by the israeli air force and torpedo boats. I agree that the attack was coordinated and deliberate, but the question remains whether or not Israel properly identified the vessel. I think that the reason some people are convinced that it was a coordinated and deliberate attack upon an American ship instead of a misidentified Egyptian ship is the rather absurd idea that Israel doesn't make mistakes.
Edited by norad45 (03/24/07 12:04 PM)
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#89340 - 03/24/07 11:08 AM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: FRERAD1776]
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Veteran
Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
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James Akins Ambassador James Akins, Ret., Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Now why do you suppose this unbiased, independant commission includes a former ambassador to Saudi Arabia? What $pecial qualification$ doe$ he bring to the table? The officers and crew of the USS Liberty endured a horrific attack. Their heroism deserves to be recognized. That the incident was an accident in no way changes this fact.
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#89345 - 03/24/07 01:43 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: norad45]
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Geezer
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
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1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty . . . If after eight hours of surveillance the Israeli's didn't know without a doubt the identity of USS Liberty the aviators conducting the recce flights should have been punished for gross incompetence. No way was that an accident. The Israeli government wants us to believe that it was an accident (oops, my bad) and some of us obviously buy their we-were-incompetent, sorry-'bout-the-mixup story.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough. Okay, what’s your point??
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#89348 - 03/24/07 03:11 PM
Re: Gulf of Tonkin, Middle Eastern flavored
[Re: ironraven]
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thank heaven the British Navy and Royal Marines are patrolling the Shatt Al Arab Waterways. If it were the US Marines the consequences for this type of incursion into disputed territorial waters between Iran and Iraq would be unthinkable. Lots of dead people and even more warfare rather than ability to keep to a negotiable outcome. Its all about rules of engagement - shoot first ask questions later is not the British way.
Edited by bentirran (03/24/07 03:16 PM)
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