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#89039 - 03/21/07 07:56 PM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: MartinFocazio]
OrangeJoe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 38
Loc: Old Colony, USA
Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Remember, most kids with ADHD are fidgety and interrupt others, in addition to having trouble with school. So, taking the drug during school helps the whole class, not just that person.


Most kids with what is called ADHD are perfectly normal kids, who are suffering from sugar shock from the crap they drink, from toxic reactions to the coloring and additives in the "food" they eat.

Passive bovine children are certainly easier to manage. But fidgeting and interruption is NORMAL BEHAVIOR FOR CHILDREN. It's not a "disease"at all - we're treating childhood and all it means as a pathology.

This article in the New York Times has this snippet:

"Peg L. Smith, the chief executive officer of the American Camp Association, a trade group with 2,600 member camps and three million campers, says about a quarter of the children at its camps are medicated for attention deficit disorder, psychiatric problems or mood disorders."

25% percent of the population of children can't be so mentally ill (and ADHD is a mental illness) that they need drugs. It's like saying that 25% of the population has cancer or AIDS. A population with 25% of the members suffering a pathology can't survive, no matter what the pathology.

Children are not convenient.
Children are not alway easy to deal with.
Children are not machines to be turned on and off when it suits parents and teachers.
Children are smarter than you think and less rational than you can imagine.

Children are small people with limited experience. As a result, they don't know how to act like adults, and they should net be expected to do so.

You've hit a raw, raw nerve with me here, because I've seen what Ritalin and the other drugs do to exuberant, brilliant, but excitable children.
"The Onion" a satirical weekly paper, had a brilliant "news" article about Ritalin a few years ago:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32261

"WORCESTER, MA—Area 7-year-old Douglas Castellano's unbridled energy and creativity are no longer a problem thanks to Ritalin, doctors for the child announced Monday. "After years of failed attempts to stop Douglas' uncontrollable bouts of self-expression, we have finally found success with Ritalin," Dr. Irwin Schraeger said. "For the first time in his life, Douglas can actually sit down and not think about lots of things at once." Castellano's parents reported that the cured child no longer tries to draw on everything in sight, calming down enough to show an interest in television."

OK, I'm stepping off this thread because I'll go totally ballistic if I see another post extolling the virtues of easy-to-manage drugged children.



AMEN!
_________________________
All good things...
a) come to those who wait.
b) come to an end.

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#89049 - 03/21/07 09:18 PM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: NightHiker]
Micah513 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Springfield, MO
Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Didn't anybody tell you? BSA stand for Baby Sitters of America.


I like it! grin

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#89051 - 03/21/07 09:34 PM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: Be_Prepared]
Micah513 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Springfield, MO
Originally Posted By: Be_Prepared
but, I look at it a different way. From my perspective, those boys need us even more than the ones who have parents actively involved with the troop, so we always go out of our way to make them feel "at home".


Excellent point!

I actually grew up with an alcholic father which after 5th grade turned into a single parent home. And some of my best memories/experiences are going to scout campouts & church summer camps & being involved in a good church youth group. Those are the places where I found out what real men are like & how I should live my life.

So you are absolutely correct in that those are the kids that need us most!

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#89080 - 03/22/07 12:04 AM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: Seeker890]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Actually, bribery I think sends an entirely poor message to kids, rewards for good work might be more appropriate. I feel that the activity itself should be reward enough, so I prefer to give them a choice. They can choose to do the thing I think they will benefit from more, or they can choose the other option, which will help build their character more and teach them a deeper appreciation of property ownership. (which involves an endless list of household chores, or heading to the berry-picking fields, or out to the woodpile, etc). I prefer to have my kids feel that the choices I present them are privileged opportunities to avoid the mundane tasks and that they have inherent value enough to be worth their interest. It worked pretty good for me, and it does require that parents get more involved in their childrens lives.

I think if the dad really wanted to get his son involved, then he would've taken the time and made the effort to ensure that the kid was interested and motivated to participate. Nothing in the story indicates this was the case, so it is easy to conclude the worst about the man. I can't see it as anything but either laziness or general disinterest, both of which are repugnant.

I've not been with my kid for two years now, but the previous 16 were spent taking the time and making whatever effort was needed to raise a responsible, respectable, confident and capable young adult. If you are going to have children, then they need to be the most important thing in your life, above career, above personal interests; you need to be willing to do whatever it takes to ensure their success, or else you have failed in life. That's my philosophy anyways.

I didn't leave until I was sure the kid was capable of functioning without me being right there, that she had learned the set of values she needed to and was able to apply them accordingly. Then my priority shifted from gentle but firm guidance to earning more money so I could pay for her college needs and whateve else she had to have to get ahead over the next 4 to 6 years. I do not enjoy the work I do, nor do I like being away from my loving wife, but by doing this I have doubled my earning capability and I am improving her chances to accomplish as much as she likes by increasing the funds available to her.

To her credit, she has earned a college scholarship in my absence, got a job, made the varsity volleyball team, and is setting records in track and field at her high school. She basically self motivated through all this, despite having to move to a new school her junior year. As I discovered from the first daughter, even with a scholarship they need a lot of financial help these days.

I have no tolerance left for parents who foist off their responsiblities onto others. That especially includes single parents who've elected to go it alone because they are unhappy with the choice they've made for a partner. This trend of apathy in family life by men and women who know better is rotting the core of our society. There's not so much wrong with the children these days who get into trouble; there's plenty wrong with their immature and selfish parents.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#89103 - 03/22/07 02:09 AM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: benjammin]
Seeker890 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Central Ohio
This is a terribly complex subject. I believe scouting has a tremendous impact to boys lifes. I joined as a cub and stayed until 18. I felt that it had such an impact in my life that I joined up again with my son. (just as much fun the second time around!!!) Its not for everyone. You lose some to sports and other interests. Some stay. Four of the boys who were in my cub den will be getting their eagle award together this summer (including my son).

We like to get parents involved. You lose adult volunteers the same as youth. We have a lot of involved parents. We always alow parents who have not registered to attend campouts. However, without registration, there is no training. Sometimes it is difficult to curb untrained parents enthusiasm and let the boys run the troop. "Never do for a boy what a boy can do for himself." Boy scouts is not like cub scouts. We expect to see a certain amount of distancing from parents. The boys learn to cook and clean up for themselves. Adjustment for 11 and 12 year olds is easy for most, more difficult for others.

As I recall the story, the dad was going to give the boy $5 if he didn't have fun on the trip. The newscaster noted that the dad payed up. That seems more like a reverse bribe. Having seen a lot of boys go through our troop over the last seven years, the first few trips can be sometimes be tough. My own son didn't want to go camping the first trip out.

I really don't want to defend the dad since I don't know him or his motivations. However, I feel forced in that direction because I know a lot of good parents who want to give their sons the benefit of scouting, but do not have the interest to participate themselves.

I always felt every boy can benefit from scouting. If we could only get them in the door and out in the woods, we could peak enough interest to keep them long enough to change their lives. I think any parent that brings their sons, to get them involved, is to be commended. Could they do more? Certainly. Sign up, get trained, get involved.

Some parents coach, some help the band, some are involved in other civic organizations or the church. Some help the scouts. Some do nothing. We all have only so many hours to go around.

Yes, scout leaders babysit. We know it. But it is for the benefit of the boys.

I will get off my soapbox.
_________________________
The Seeker

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#89201 - 03/23/07 03:30 AM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: Seeker890]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"I have no tolerance left for parents who foist off their responsiblities onto others. That especially includes single parents who've elected to go it alone because they are unhappy with the choice they've made for a partner. This trend of apathy in family life by men and women who know better is rotting the core of our society. There's not so much wrong with the children these days who get into trouble; there's plenty wrong with their immature and selfish parents."

That is so true. The kids who are so obnoxious today didn't get there by themselves.

But the ones who are truly amazing are the ones who rise above parents who've never cared, and make something of their lives. One of my friends is one of four kids of a woman who was an alcohoic since she was about 12. Dad was a cop who let her do as she wanted, and was rarely around. My friend was the eldest, and she raised the younger ones. They all eventually escaped and lived together, supporting each other, and all graduated from college. In later years, they took care of that nasty old woman until she had to be put into a nursing home with Alzheimers. Today, at least one of them visits with her every day.

A young man I met about ten years ago was the child of a hardcore junkie. He didn't sleep in a real bed until he was 13. He was 18 when I met him, had passed his GED, was working at two jobs and was attending college.

Coming home from his job, he fell asleep, crossed the center line and hit a log truck head-on.

Sue

Sue

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#89210 - 03/23/07 05:27 AM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: Seeker890]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Yep, I would agree with you about the values of scouting for young folk. It is good to see parents step up and take an active role in their children's development. I also agree that as the kids get older and more experienced, it is natrual that the parents direct involvement with the development diminish, and they become more the cheerleader and enabler, and eventually the proud spectator.

I guess I can go along with your position about parents who don't share an interest in some of their child's undertakings, so long as they are enthusiastic about whatever they've got their kid involved in, and do also actively particpate to a major degree in other mutually interesting activities.

In this case, I think the dad was just too busy to spend the time needed to help his son develop a healthy interest. Too busy chasing other interests that probably have nothing to do with his kid. Rather than spend time with his child doing anything together, he took the easy way out, at least based on the kid's reaction you would think this is the case. Offering the kid $5.00 was just motivation not to participate at all. I can pay a kid $5.00 to not eat a candy bar once too, and feel pretty sure he'll take the deal.

I've not always been able to do all the things with my kids that were available. Sometimes it is a matter of priorities, and sometimes I make the sacrifice to be there for them no matter what. I also make a tremendous effort to draw them into my interests as well, because it is there that I can pass on much of my values to them I think. I guess it is simple logic for me, how much of my child's future success do I want to leave up to chance, and the answer is only what is beyond my limits to provide for. In return, I am allowed to expect them to perform, to respect the sacrifice, and to learn values and develop confidence. So far, I have not been disappointed, and my girls have done great things and are glad that I was there to instill the desire and give the support to do.

Like I said before, it ain't easy, but it is required if you are to be a parent.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#89226 - 03/23/07 01:42 PM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: benjammin]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Ben, not to many people can say what you did about single parents and still have my respect. I'm not sure where you are.

My birth father is the kind of guy who thinks black eyes and broken fingers are sexy- he didn't get his little kink until after I was born. Do you think less of my mother because she eventually was able to get out? Or just less of me because I'm the product of a single parent household?

Or did you speak without thinking through all the variables?

Keep in mind that there are a lot of reasons to get a divorce. I've seen people who's parents stayed together "for the kids". And those people are just as likely to be screwed up as those who's parents got that divorce and those who's families aren't screwed up. I've seen parents who should have great kids have children that are messed up in the head. I've seen kids that were basically forced to fend for themselves since they were six become great people.

And yes, I believe nature as more to do with the outcome of childhood than nurture does. Some kids are just born messed up- I knew one of my cousins was going to be trouble when he was 2. And I was right.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#89230 - 03/23/07 02:31 PM Re:Missing Scout found [Re: benjammin]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...That especially includes single parents who've elected to go it alone because they are unhappy with the choice they've made for a partner..."

My wife left her first husband after a broken jaw and looking down the barrel of his .44 mag, so I guess you could say that she was unhally with the choice she made in a partner. She then raised two kids as a single mom, working graveyard shift as a law enforcement dispatcher, taking college classes, doing her Navy Reserve time, being a room mom at school, taking the kids to their various clubs and interests, being an assistant Brownie leader, the list goes on and on and on. I have no idea how or when she slept. Beind divorced often has little to do with the quality of the parent. Not all divorced parents go on the Jerry Springer Show...
_________________________
OBG

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