Being a scoutmaster with a 12-year old son, the Michael Auberry story hits VERY close to home.

For a long time now I've thought about the kind of gear that Scouts should carry. The Boy Scout Handbook has an excellent list of "outdoor essentials", but the reality is that these boys want to travel light when out having fun. For the most part, they simply will not carry a daypack filled with gear around with them while out and about. Most of the boys in my son's troop won't even wear a fanny pack.

Don't misunderstand. They will bring all the gear with them when camping, and they might wear a daypack with gear while hiking or attending a special event, but that stuff is generally left in or near their tent when out having fun or exploring the local area.

So that gets me to thinking: What is the minimal gear that Michael Auberry, or any other Boy Scout, could have carried with him to increase his chance of surviving a few nights lost in the woods - something along the lines of a Boy Scout EDC.

OK, here is what I've come up with as a VERY minimal EDC, assuming he is dressed warm enough to at least survive night-time temperatures:

MINIMUM:
Pocketknife - primarily used to help fire building
Lighter - it should be tested before heading out the door
Whistle
Two Bright Trash Bags (33 gallon or 55 gallon, depending on the size of the boy) - one to cover the top and another for the bottom or as a flag

I'd prefer they also carry a bandanna - to try to soak up dew or water in crevises, do first aid, swat flies, tie together sticks, strain water, act as tinder if all else fails, etc...

A signal mirror would be a great addition, but they are too bulky and easily damaged in a Scout's pocket.

A tiny flashlight might be nice too, but for me it doesn't bubble up to the top of the list.

Your thoughts?

Ken K.

As an absolute minimum, and assuming adequate clothing and a plentiful supply of water:

AMK Heatsheet
Mini-Bic lighter x 2
Pre-made tinder
Photon III
SAK or small Multitool
Whistle
Mirror
15' paracord


If the kids are responsible enough to go on a campout then they should be required to be on their honor to carry at least this much at all times.

I would add some twine or thin rope. It weighs nothing and is really helpful when you need to fix things or improvise a shelter. Maybe a small compass, a miniature fishing % sewing kit plus a firestarter tool (just in case the lighter fails) and you're good to go.

Basically I'm a big fan of the SAS-style tobacco can survival kit. It fits nicely in a cargo pocket on my BDU's. The tin cover also doubles as a signal mirror.

I have read all of the replys so far and all are good, But the main thing is his brain. If he has a computer, or he can use yours, turn him on to this site and let him ask his own questions and all of us here would be more happy to help. I have just checked thru My BSA Handbook ( 1988 vintage ) and there is no Survival subject in the book, not even listed in the index, Just bits and pieces as to what to do. I think a pre made survival kit from this site for a present for some good deed would be in order. Kids are like horses, you can lead them to water, but you can't make them drink. Use the back door get Him interested by giving him a project to find out what all of the Items in his kit are used for.

Ken, my son is an 11YO new scout and he asked for a DR PSK, he carries it every where he goes (except school), when we go camping in the mountains, or the desert we both have are DR PSK

Mike

Hi Ken,

Good question. I started to touch on it with my reply about the boy in NC. The guys in my troop seem to have arrived on what they consider outdoor EDC, based on our discussions at our meeting last night. It's essentially what you listed:

- Dress right for the conditions.
- Water (something that can be clipped to your belt or a pants loop.)
- Whistle
- Knife
- Firestarting "stuff" (matches, lighter, flint/steel, tinder)
- Shelter "stuff" (trash bag, bivvy sack, space blanket/bag, etc)
- Flashlight

They know that the other things we discuss are important, but, frequently don't "carry" them on their person. In fact, for many, the "real" EDC is reduced to knife, whistle, lighter, and whatever clothes they have on. Of course, if we can get them to do that consistantly, they will be better off than most people anyway, and they will also have experience actually using them, what a concept. They call it "outdoor EDC". Unfortunately, they can't really develop the good habit of "EVERY" Day Carry of this stuff, because they'd be thrown out of school...

I'd say:

1. Appropriate clothing for the conditions.
2. Water bottle with water or similar.
3. Whistle.


I think those are most important and can be carried and used by all but the youngest of children (with almost no training).

After those things the item list depends on the age and level of skill. One can carry all the gear they want, but if they don't know how to use it than it can actually have a negative effect on morale and safety.

Have you seen what the BSA offers as a whistle? The last time I was at a BSA store all they offered was a silver referee whistle with a pea which is not appropriate for the wilderness.


All scouts need to be able to deal with in one form or another;
Shelter from the elements.
Ways to get / stay warm (fire).
Ways to signal for help.
and
Water.

What is wrong with pea whistles?
They are not loud enough or what?

It is easy to have scouts wear a fanny pack with a certain # of specific items. Wear it or you dont go. End of discussion.

Kinda like when I was in the .mil..... Web gear, poncho, water, Kevlar. End of discussion.

The pea tends to stick inside, so that it's not possible to produce any whistle at all.

They get stupid and don't work if they get wet. And the metal ones can be a massive problem below 0.

The pea creates the sound. If the pea falls out, gets frozen or stuck or even in some cases gets wet and swells up the whistle does not function. The pea is a moving part that is a weak link.
All signal / rescue whistle are pealess.

I am sure Doug has written a great article on whistles.

The knife, and matches/lighter might get them the boot, but the rest of this can be stuck in an old pouch or small bag and tossed or clipped to their backpacks. Add in a sparklight or hot spark, a mini FAK with gloves, and they'll be good for all but the most anal retentive principle or headmaster.

When EDC becomes every day, you feel naked without it.

Not for a kid in school- altoids tins that are too beat up looking get attention. They are called "stash tins" in certain circles for a reason. The Alkosak or zippered soft case is less likely to get attention.

Hi
As a former Eagle Scout, I did LOTS of hiking up in the Sierra Nevadas, and a fair amount in the deserts around SoCal with my troop. At the very least, the scouting leaders made us have a whistle around our neck and a pocket knife (usually in the BSA nylon holster on our belt). But you're right in that they usually don't carry much while running around.

What I found, around the time I hit First Class (what, about 13?) is that the Army-Navy stores have TONS of bags and such. I had a small old cotton pack that carried my 10 essentials (minus the canteen) that I kept on my belt. If you can get each Scout to carry something about 5x7 inches (maybe a tad smaller) that their 10 essentials can squeeze into, they're probably more likely to take it. An added bonus, "army" stuff might be better accepted than "fanny" packs or daypacks (the 'cool' factor).

Of course... YOU are the ADULT. That means, if you have to, the rules become "no exploring without the 10 essentials."

I think your troop is taking a sensible approach. A possible approach to the problem of getting scouts to carry some essentials on their person: neither I or my 12 yr old Scout go so far as a day hike without a lanyard around our necks holding a Fox whistle, photon LED light knock off, and on mine a P38 can opener. About $8/Scout-lanyard. More than that and you seem to risk Scout rebellion, neck-wise. But I'd rather have a Scout with a whistle and the sense (training) to STOP and blow it when lost than a whole lot of nothing because he's away from his pack and essentials.

The LED is handy for 3AM latrine visits, and maybe a bit of moral support for a Scout lost in the dark. The P38 of course is for fending off bear...

Whistles should be everywhere imo. REI Sahara zip off pants, the pants of choice for local Scouts, come with an ok whistle hanging from the belt. Lots of whistles incorporated into pack zippers too. Better than none, but no substitute for one of the Fox models on person.

Another Boy Scout EDC frequently missing these days is the buddy system. It can be hard to enforce on the trail with hikers of varying abilities, but it can be such a protection I wish it was invoked more than I see it.

It would be nice to understand the age of the children in question. I'm not sure I can give a real razor-sharp survival knife to my 7 year old son yet... Though, I'm not familiar with the Boy Scout culture, may be that rank imply some age range already?

A boy scout is between 11 and 18 years of age. Roughly 6th grade through high school.

I see quite a few good ideas on this thread, some I am going to take to my own EDC that I keep forgetting about. But I am also seeing a lack of the word KNIFE in most of these lists.

I dont want to spark another debate here, but I see so many posts on how to equip a boyscout or a kid in general (here and elsewhere) and there is such an aversion to giving child a knife. I have been carrying a knife since I was 7 when my granddad gave me first Case knife. Since then, I have gone through literally dozens until I found Spyderco and have had them ever since. I have never hurt myself or anyone else in doing so. I even remember carrying my knife to school. Why are we, as a culture or as a forum, so much against giving a child a knife. With the proper education and supervision, a child of 7 or 8 should be able to carry a knife.

I know that BSA has changed over the years, and what I could do when I was a Life Scout has probably changed dramatically, so there I cannot comment. But I think as responsible adults, which we all are, or we would not be here, we should be able to teach our children how to carry and use a knife responsibly.

Just my two cents.

Garrett

Generally Boy scouts are 10 years old or above. However, being an Eagle Scout with Junior Leader Training and former Leader I learned quickly that age does not equal experience or trust. The majority of new scouts got frustrated trying to start a fire in the best of conditions, never mind in the worst. Many also had to be carefully watched when wielding simple hiking sticks, never mind knives and lighters. I wouldn't let a scout carry a knife and fire starting device until I felt they were ready and trained with their certification cards (still Toten Chip and Fire'm Chit I gather?). However, all scouts would be given a whistle (with info about the three blasts for help signal) and water bottle right away and were expected to carry them.

Fact is, one list does not really work for all. Skill level varies greatly, even among scouts of the same age or rank. Telling (or even just allowing) a first year scout with little training or experience he needs to carry fire starting gear with him could end up being more disastrous than helpful, even in a survival situation.

I agree wholeheartedly. But, the problem in scouts is that our children includes kids raised by other people. Sometimes that means you are going to have problems, not just with the kids, but with the parents as well. If a young kid carries a knife because it's on some list and doesn't have any training or experience that knife could just end up exacerbating the situation for the child.

Plus, if he does get rescued you'll end up getting sued by the parents because the knife the kid carried (on your recommendation or because it was on your list) endangered his welfare by hindering his survival (due to the self-inflicted gash on his hand). It's a shame, but that is what we deal with today.

Ditto Paul. The scouts had to earn their Toten Chip (basically learn the basics of knives: cut away from you, no rough housing, saying "thank you" to signify you have the knife firmly while passing, etc). You'd lose a corner if you were caught violating rules. In my troop though, it seemed that the adults left you alone if you were responsible/mature enough. We had a good troop in terms of adult leaders, and later, older kids as role models.

Most kids are fine with a SAK, but I did have one idiot that loved the Rambo knife... at least until he threatened a kid at a Merit Badge Day (he was about 15 or 16, the rest of us around 12). Out he went. I think the big thing is active parents, aware of it's necessity, and smart about what to buy. It's really hard to intimidate someone with your 3" SAK, when the other 10 kids with you have one. But bring a Ka-bar to camp, and there WILL be issues.

Nighthiker:

I just went thru my BSA Handbook again, Not even a SAR Section, guess it's time for me to find a newer copy.

I'd say that the training is as important as the equipment -- if the scout knows what to do when lost then his chances improve greatly.

Garrett, I think you will find that most of us don't have problem with giving a knife to a young citizen, regardless of age. A child is different matter.

However, we also except that schools get twitchy, because of the ratio of feral children to normal children to young citizens.

As others have said, knowledge is most important, without it, gear is misused, or not used at all. This applies to adults as well as kids.

As far as getting scouts to carry the minimum required stuff, it seems, at least as far as I have seen, that scouts today rarely wear the uniform, and if they do, usually only the shirt. With the current popularity of "cargo" type pants, many, if not most, of the scouts will probably be wearing them, it should be pretty easy to come up with kits that they can stuff into one of those many pockets (that is why I like cargos myself). Won't be as easy to tell if they are "equipped" that way as opposed to a pack or fanny pack, but there are ways to work around that.

As far as whistles go, I have to agree that a pea whistle is not the best, but I was required to carry a pea whistle as a part of my uniform, and actually did it for the first ten years or so. A quality pea whistle (Acme Thunder, brass, highly polished in my case), will work. I have stood in the rain directing traffic for more hours than I care to remember, and never had it fail to work. In really cold weather you do have to warm it up a bit first, or it will become attached to your lips. But at least you won't drop it that way. Much better than no whistle at all...

I don't know how much they changed the BSA handbook in the last few years, but as I remember it was pretty useless as far as outdoors info. It didn't go into much detail on anything.

The Fieldbook was, by far, the better resource.

Normally I would expect (demand) that they dress appropriately and carry water. A knife and fire starting materials may be carried after earning their Totin' Chip and Firem'n Chit. We do not allow youth to carry lighters at any time. The patrol boxes have them for lighting stoves and lanterns. There have been too many cases of disposable lighters exploding from a sharp impact. A former scoutmaster had seen pictures of a youth that fell with one in his shirt pocket. It has been a troop policy ever since. Other fire making materials are fine (with the appropriate Chit). A whistle is excellent. We camped in Canada one summer at a camp that wrapped around a lake. You had to canoe everywhere. Every one in camp was required to have a whistle on there person, all the time. For several years after that, most of the youth who had been on that trip carried their whistles on other events. Unfortunately, that has somewhat died out. The council owned camps do not allow fixed blade knives, so we encourage youth to use folding knives with a locking blade.

It's funny - I never remember a "tote'n chip" in my troop - in fact, most NEW scouts came up from the Cubs, and tended to get a BOY Scout knife to replace their CUB Scout knife on the "Moving up" ceremony

Friday nights were the Troop Meetings. Right after Colors, there was inspection. I'll see if I can remember what we were supposed to carry.

You were in full uniform (this is the old Khaki uniforms, except for Leadership Corp - who wore Explorer Greens). This meant polished shoes - or hiking boots, your neckerchief properly folded, Garrison cap pants, shirt, belt (No dress sash required except certain meetings)

Other required items:
Approved knife (almost everyone had the classic 5 blade boyscout knife)
Paper and Pencil
Handkerchief
10 cents (later 25) for phone
Until you were signed off on knots - 3 ft of clothes line

On "camping trip" Fridays (we almost always went on 2 nighters) - you were inspected - you had to have a first aid kit, boots, had to wear your neckerchief, but NOT the rest of your uniform, pocket knife, Knife/fork/spoon, mess kit, canteen, food, rope, match case with matches, compass, maps for area we were going (my troop RARELY went to scout camps - we went into the WOODS), clothing based on season, etc You were given a list of minimum gear

Patrol Leaders were expected to inspect their patrols

The Senior Patrol leader and Assistant Sr then double checked, and checked the Patrol leaders - the JASM would sometimes inspect THEM

This was before any of us heard of multitools. Between the Leadership Corp (Patrol Leaders and up) we carried group gear - things like larger first aid kits, pliers, wire, 2 handed axes etc

Gee - sounds almost paramilitary, huh? That's because the Boy Scouts were!

If I remember right - our big "moving up" ceremony for the Cubs was December, so their first Troop meeting was in January - By end of March - they were expected to be ready for a 20 mile day hike!

kc2ixe, I'm impressed!

When I was in CAP as a kid, we always made fun of the Scouts because they didn't have things like inspection, pushups or strictly enforced uniform regs. And they wet their beds, I was told. On the other hand, they didn't have to carry a brick around for the rest of the meeting if they failed inspection...

For a small kid, the whistle would be the #1 item. I hate things around my neck, so I tie the lanyard to the top button hole on my shirt and put the whistle in my breast pocket. You should shorten or braid the lanyard. You can also make it more a part of the uniform by hanging the whistle itself from the pocket button instead of putting it in the pocket.

If you're caught without it - BRICK!

This surprises me. I suppose it is possible for a disposable lighter to detonate from an impact but I imagine the odds are astronomical. I'd bet that in order for any such detonation to occur the lighter would have to be heated up 'til it almost melted. At any rate, the odds of a Scout getting lost and needing to build a fire quickly far outweigh the dangers of exploding Bics. If you are dead set against them, a good alternative would be REI Stormproof Matches. If the Scout is skilled enough then maybe a firesteel. The important thing is that they always carry something.

Requiring the scouts to have a chit to carry a knife or firemaking materials is fine, as long as each Scout knows that without those chits they can't carry them, and without carrying them they stay at home. Sounds harsh I know, but so is hypothermia and death.

"...If you're caught without it - BRICK..."

I sadly suspect that in todays politically correct world, some parent would protest that this was demeaning to his/her overweightoutofshapeunderprepared kid, an attorney or three would get involved, etc etc etc.

Kind of like metal shop in my high school. If you ever left the chuck key in the chuck of a metal lathe (without your hand on it), and the teacher saw it, you were made "creap of the week." Along with the title came the fun job of cleaning the drip pans under all of the tools at the end of the day for a week. Then, quite a few years later, some parent didn't like Little Johnny being called that. Today, same school, no metal shop at all...

Actually, there needs to be an exception to that... When they are swimming or bathing... Or in some kind of emergency...

Now you might think that this is obvious, but it SHOULD be spelled out, and SPECIFICALLY mentioned that it is allowed...

Why, you might ask???

For a VERY important reason...

You are asking them to 'be on their honor' to do something ALLWAYS, but knowing that they are NOT expected to do it ALWAYS...
This leads people(not just kids) to think that their 'honor' is only a 'sometimes' thing, and that it has unwritten exceptions...
This should never be the case...

That is one of the reasons that I think is is VERY counterproductive to have laws on the book, that everyone ignores, and that are almost(or completely) unenforced...
It leads to a disrespect for the law, both by the people that break them, and by everyone that watches them being broken every day...

Honor is one of the most important things that Scouting teaches, and it should not be undermined for no(or little) reason...
Honor is not taught in the schools anymore, and most of the time, not at home either...

I sometimes find myself slipping...
It is easy to keep your word, when it is important, if you have any honor at all, but, it is when it is UNIMPORTANT, that honor shows most of all...

Look at the year of the book he has...
Wasn't that during the time when the BSA decided that they needed to switch from emphasizing the outdoors, to more 'urban' activities, so that more kids would be interested in joining...
They did not realize that the kids they were trying to recruit, wanted something DIFFERENT than the 'urban' things that they did every day, and their membership dropped...
From what I understand, and from what I saw in a current handbook, they have started to move back to an outdoors emphasis...
They even have reprints of their FIRST handbook!!!
Now, THAT is in interesting book...
BTW, if you have not ever been to a BSA office, do so, if for nothing more than to pick up some of their fire steels(which are GREAT and small enough to have on you always).
Look at their book selection, they have some interesting stuff that might surprise you...

Of course there will be common sense exceptions. Even the Scout Oath requires the Scout swear only to "do my best." I actually think there should be very little wriggle room when it comes to carrying gear. If you prefer, then you could require them on their honor to always carry their survival gear "unless circumstances make it impossible to do so." The important thing is, if they are caught without their survival gear without some compelling reason, that there will be consequences. I would send them home--it's that important.

Look at the year of the book he has...
Wasn't that during the time when the BSA decided that they needed to switch from emphasizing the outdoors, to more 'urban' activities, so that more kids would be interested in joining...
They did not realize that the kids they were trying to recruit, wanted something DIFFERENT than the 'urban' things that they did every day, and their membership dropped...
From what I understand, and from what I saw in a current handbook, they have started to move back to an outdoors emphasis...
They even have reprints of their FIRST handbook!!!
Now, THAT is in interesting book...
BTW, if you have not ever been to a BSA office, do so, if for nothing more than to pick up some of their fire steels(which are GREAT and small enough to have on you always).
Look at their book selection, they have some interesting stuff that might surprise you...

I have never blown a lighter up, but I found the following:

Snopes.com has an article that debunked a spark from welding causing one to blow up, but then goes on to say that they do indeed blow up from heat, and have blown up in peoples pockets.

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/lighters.asp

MythBusters did a segment where they couldn't make one explode.

Canada customs agents confiscate certain lighters they say explode:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2000/11/06/lighters001106.html

Adults may carry lighters, not youth. Matches and hotsparks are OK.

BSA policy is to make sure the boys have safety training before carrying knives and matches, therefore the chip & chit requirement. We usually try to get all the new scouts through the training the first campout. After that, any unsafe act gets a corner off the card. Not carrying the card when carrying the material will get a corner off the card (when it can next be found). When all four corners are missing, back to training to earn a new card.

Funny story about that. My father has a fabricator/welder that comes to his shop when he needs something made or fixed that he can't do himself. I was talking to the guy about how I heard welders don't carry BIC lighters anymore because a spark can cause them to explode. He proceeded to pull out his BIC lighter and put his lit cigarette out on the side of it (much to my horror). I guess he didn't really care.

A butane lighter can’t explode “like a stick of dynamite”. It contains fuel but no oxygen or oxidizer. The fuel can only burn as fast as it comes in contact with air. Now, if you put a hole in the side and add a source of ignition you may have a big jet of flame, but no explosion. I threw a lighter into a campfire once, and as soon as a small hole was melted through it flew a few feet into the air under the pressure of escaping fuel and that was it.

The alleged problem seems to be crud from the flint getting into the valve mechanism and keeping it partially open. You put it in your pocket and your clothing becomes saturated with gaseous fuel, which could cause burns if ignited.

I got my dad's old penknife when he got a new one. I was about seven. I knicked myself a few times. And if I had gashed myself pretty good, so what? That's what Bactine and Bandaids were for.

I agree that the chance of a lighter exploding is fairly astronomical. I see the little toads smoking all the time --- which are the most dangerous, the cigarettes or the lighters?

I think some people really need to get a grip. If a kid hits their finger with a hammer, they'll probably be more careful next time. The answer is NOT to eliminate hammers.

You give the kid equipment while you're home, and you teach him how to use it, how not to use it, and make sure he knows all the safety issues. And not just once, either. Education is a lifelong project. The number of parents who will let their 10-year-old rip over a hilly field in a 4-wheeler at top speed, but not teach them how to use a knife make me grind my teeth in frustration.

Obviously one thing the Scouts don't teach is what to do if they do get lost. Maybe a lot of parents put their kids in the Scouts so they'll disappear and never be found? It seems to work in some cases, esp in UT. Some of them have been missing for years.

The bottom line is that you can give a kid all the gear in the world, tell him "NO" and "Don't" only a million times or so, and he's still going to act like a twit when lost in the wilderness. Why not teach him at home how to make a fire, how to use a lighter, how to use a knife, how to collect water, how to protect himself from the elements?

The gear in his pockets isn't going to be worth much if he doesn't have some gear in his head.

Cynical Sue

Ken,

How would the scouts carry the trash bags?

Thanks!

Craig_PHX
Troop 824
Webmaster
http://www.bsatroop824.org/

in the 1950's we called them "lost kits"..matches,whistle.
small candle..foil.. so on.. putting the kit together and talking
about what to do to be found again was probably more important
than the kit itself which was more of a "group working together"activity..i recall the "don't call wolf" speech from
the scoutmaster..scouts who hid out for the "fun" of causing
a panicky search for them would be sent home from camp.

YOu fold them. A 33 gallon contractor's bag folds up to about the size of a skinny sandwich. Then put it in a 1qt freezer bag so the big bag doesn't get snagged up, sit on it (redneck vacume sealer) and close it up.

I have only "blown up" one lighter (Bic) in my life. Takes a Bic, flat surface, awl, and lots of alcohol. Short story is that if you puncture one it will fracture and parts fly away. This was about 20 years ago and the plastic formula may have changed by now.

Bill

By a long shot... If that kid had had a whistle, I think he would have been found a LOT sooner... He said that he heard the searchers but they did not hear his shouting...

The BIGEST problem with the metal whistles are that, in the winter, they can freeze to your lips!

There are some pea whistles that are just about as loud as I have ever heard... The Windstorm for example...

The problem is:
1. That the pea can be swallowed and choke someone(Not likely in my opinion, at least with a GOOD whistle).
2. That it stops the whistle from working when it is wet.(But that does not seem to be a problem with the Windstorm)
3. That, if wet, it can freeze inside the whistle.(I have no idea if that would effect the ability of the Windstorm to produce a whistle, but it would change the sound to a normal Storm whistle sound at the least)

There is a lot of debate on how well the sounds of different whistles carry, and of how well they can be NOTICED(which are totally different things...
Some people believe that the sound of a whistle with a pea is more UNNATURAL and so will be noticed more easily than that of a pea-less whistle, even though the pea-less whistle is actually louder...

To some of us with lousy hearing, some of the fancy pea-less whistles are too high a freq to be heard. But then I am too old and worn out to be doing much SAR stuff anyway...

OK, I agree with most of that list, but #13: "Explain why it usually is not wise to eat edible wild plants or wildlife in a wilderness survival situation."
?????
I guess it depends on what they are calling a survival situation, but anywhere that is COLD is going to require you to eat, if you are in it for more than a day...

I had some issues with #8: "Show that you can find and improvise a natural shelter minimizing the damage to the environment." until I read #9: "Spend a night in your shelter."
I do not think that "minimizing the damage to the environment" is of ANY concern in a real survival situation... But because they are actually having to DO it, it may be OK, because the task will actually be harder than normal...
You SHOULD tell them that if their life is in danger, to forget about minimizing the damage to the environment, and make the best shelter they can in the QUICKEST time they can!

The rest of the list is very good, and I would bet that a lot of people that get out of survival classes cannot do some of them... Like #6: "Show that you can start fires using three methods other than matches.", or #11: "Show three ways to treat water found in the outdoors to prepare it for drinking."
It is the SHOW combined with the THREE in those that is rather 'hardcore'...

I kept trying to figure out what the alcohol was for...
Then I suddenly realized that it was for the courage/stupidity...

Obviously one thing the Scouts don't teach is what to do if they do get lost.

While I do acknowledge that a couple times a year you hear about a situation where a Scout is lost, what we don't tend to hear is that hundreds of thousands of them hike and camp every year without any problems. In the current edition of the handbook, which is almost 500 pages, you'll find on page 38 the start of a discussion on safe hiking and what to do if you're lost, including STOP, signalling, shelter, etc. It's one of the first requirements for the first rank you can achieve, Tenderfoot, so I think the BSA does consider it a priority. It's also revisited in several other places, and incorporated into training for several merit badges.

I think this has been a great topic, and we've picked up a lot of great info from it. I'm just a volunteer, but, I know that our training as Scoutmasters emphasizes that a HUGE responsibility as leaders is to make this a safe environment to be in. You would be amazed at how much training the BSA provides now for leaders. In our Council, they have chosen to make all of the training free for adults, to encourage even more of them to attend beyond those of us required to be there. They require varying levels of training to recharter your troop each year, depending on your role in the troop. I think many of us work hard at it, but, like anything, there are going to be varying degrees of quality in an organization built on the goodwill of thousands of volunteers.

I do believe your point that education is a lifelong project is worth repeating. You're so right that the equipment alone is not enough. Knowledge, and a cool head to employ the knowledge when needed is so vital to the development of these boys.

It's always tough when you see a news story about a Scout lost. Unfortunately, there will always be some situations where a boy gets into a bind. There are plenty of things built into the system to make that a remote possibility, but, it will happen. You hear the "Scout lost" story more, I think, because there are just so many more of them out there trying to enjoy the outdoors. Scouting also tends to place some personal responsibility on boys, something our society tends to avoid everywhere else. Our job is to let them make some mistakes, without having it become a disaster.

There are a lot of things in life that bring risks with them when you participate. The Coast Guard probably could point out that there are more boaters lost at sea each year than people who don't have a boat. There are just a lot more opportunities to get lost at sea if you're spending time there. Many boaters take Coast Guard Aux. and/or Power Squadron courses. When they do get training, they don't tend to be in the news as often as those who don't, but, once in a while, stuff happens. We just have to try to be ready as best we can when it does. Ok, I know, this probably belongs in Campfire...be gentle

I found a bic one time when I was 12 or so. I put it on a large rock and hit it with another large rock. I couldn't hear for a couple of hours from the blast. Course, we also did the same thing to 22 shells that we had taken the lead out of.

RESPONSE DELETED BY POSTER.

-Blast

PM on it's way...

-Blast

I used to have the accessory pack from MREs (old ones)that had "water proof" matches, gum, coffee, creamer, sugar, and toilet paper in them that I told my kids and scouts that I gave them to were hunters packs. I explained if they used their knife to slit the top open it would work as a cup. The packets were about the size of a wallet and they put them in their back pockets. I can't find them any more the new ones don't have the TP in them. With a knife, and a mini light most scouts carried them.

Is there any where we can get just that pack???

Take Care and Stay Safe

You SHOULD tell them that if their life is in danger, to forget about minimizing the damage to the environment, and make the best shelter they can in the QUICKEST time they can!


Yes we should tell them that in a real world environment they do not need to worry, but for this merit badge, they should look at minimizing the impact. I got my WS Merit badge at summer camp. We had a number of scouts in the class and over 6 weeks of summer camp, that could be a lot of pine trees being used for bows to sleep on. I found a natural A frame that I was able to cover with downed leaves for over head shelter and more leaves for the bedding.

Ladies and Gents, Good Morning!

IMHO, adult or child, scout or not, train them to be able to satisfy the Rule of Threes ( 3hrs. without shelter/fire, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food) to the best of their ability, and equip them with the tools and they need to be successful.

Re. compliance: What ever happened to pre-event inspections?

I was a scout in the 60's and 70's. As a troop, we were lost several times (eventually found our way), had an adult leader have a psychotic episode at summer camp, accidental started a field fire (extinguished it before the FD got there) and spent many cold nights and ate many burnt pancakes, but i think what allowed us to get through it was the relationships and mentoring that was there. It really was a family.
They say a person is in part a product of their environment and what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. I wouldn't trade my time in scouting for anything, the good nor the bad.

Regards, Jim

Thanks, I just sent them an e-mail and will let you know if they are availble.

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Yes we should tell them that in a real world environment they do not need to worry, but for this merit badge, they should look at minimizing the impact. I got my WS Merit badge at summer camp. We had a number of scouts in the class and over 6 weeks of summer camp, that could be a lot of pine trees being used for bows to sleep on. I found a natural A frame that I was able to cover with downed leaves for over head shelter and more leaves for the bedding.
[/quote]
You lucked out! My shelter kept getting taken apart, so that ultimately I had to go to a new location on the morning before our outdoor sleep-out. I ended up with a crappy half done A-frame type. Mind you, this was on an island of the CA coast (fog rolling in at night). And of course, about midnight, I find I'm sleeping on a red ant nest. Not the best of situations

Minimizing damage also has to do with fires. Sure, a forest fire gets people's attention, but...

You lucked out! My shelter kept getting taken apart, so that ultimately I had to go to a new location on the morning before our outdoor sleep-out. I ended up with a crappy half done A-frame type. Mind you, this was on an island of the CA coast (fog rolling in at night). And of course, about midnight, I find I'm sleeping on a red ant nest. Not the best of situations [/quote]

You were lucky you were in CA... In TX that could have been a Fire ant nest... Though I doubt that it would have taken until midnight for you to have found out!

As a boyscout, and now a leader I know how this works. The knife and lighter or matches are easy to get scouts to carry. The garbage bags and whistle are harder to get them to carry. I would bet that the mini disposable poncho would be easier to get them to carry. A compass and a whistle should be mandatory. Lanyards are easy to get scouts to wear when they are not loaded down with hundreds of gadgets. Scouts should never be out of yelling distance to camp, and should always have a buddy. Scouts wont carry the kits with them when around camp but will wear a lanyard and will ALWAYS have matches and a knife on them!


Sparky the reason that pea whistles are bad is that in water the pea breaks down and is not as loud.

Our troop had a campout this last weekend. Part of the trip was a 5 mile hike to complete some of the requirements for the lower ranks. I was pleased to see at least one scout who had a storm whistle hanging off a carbiner hooked to his belt loop.

The other side of the coin is the youth wandering through camp in the pouring rain, without any rain gear. "Where is your rain gear?" "It's in my pack / tent / left it ____." "Why did you leave your tent / where ever, without putting it on?" "I don't know." "Go get it and put it on." "grumble grumble" 29 youth in camp, at least 10 wandering in the pouring rain without protection.

Some have trouble with "Be Prepared".

Kids think that they are bulletproff. But at least they don't rust much...