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#7969 - 08/08/02 04:00 AM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

I've got a wierd relationship with guns. I know this might generate a lot of a abuse, but I really don't believe they have much self defense value in the ordinary sense. You truly have to have a tremendous amount of skill to use them effectively. That means an investment of time, money and training. There's a reason why the police practice so much, and as we recently witnessed with the rescue of the two abducted girls, two officers put about seven shots home, at least two at point blank range. It sounds like nearly three times that number didn't reach their mark. The perpetrator discharged his weapon but thankfully didn't hit a thing. He was a bad guy -- an experienced criminal who unlike most of us was pumped up, ready, willing and motivated to take human life. <br><br>Having said all that, if you had the money the Springfield is an excellent time tested accurate rifle. Frankly I've always been an advocate of the "Bang Factor." The sound of any weapon discharging -- or even cocking-- is enough to scare away man or beast. I have a Mauser 48A, 8mm, cheap, reliable, and very, very loud. <br><br>You might want to consider a Ruger 10/22. Very reliable .22 caliber semi-auto. A Remmington 700 is a wonderful accurate bolt action. Both are readily available at Wal-Mart. Virtually the same 700 was used as a sniper rifle in Vietnam. One semi auto handgun worth considering might be a Makarov. It is extremely easy to maintain, has only 27 or so parts, and the 9mm Mak rounds are very inexpensive to ecnourage practice, although not generally stocked at most stores.<br><br>Just worth saying again. I enjoy shooting, but leave my guns locked up. For self defense my softball bat would be my second choice, my first choice would be to jump out the window and run to the neighbors house to call the police.

#7970 - 08/08/02 04:03 AM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

10/22 is an excellent choice if you eliminate the combat factor. Ruger really does make some fantastic guns.

#7971 - 08/08/02 05:04 AM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

"Your recommendations for semi-automatic rifle for people who are new to guns. Something I can use as well as my husband (for protection)."<br><br>Barb, first of all, i dont recommend a semi-automatic rifle for people who are new to guns. Why? because semi-automatic weapons require lots of practice to yield correctly, and in the wrong hands, you may end up shooting the wrong person. <br><br>Second, if it is for in home use, its much much easier for you to use a pistol. place your self in the situation. in my honest opinion, a pistol would come out on top and a close quaters battle.<br><br>third, rifles pack a punch. now, in the case of killing your enemy, thats always a good thing. but, Do you and your husband have kids? how bout close nieghbors? you dont want that same bullet to go through window of your house and shoot out your neighbors tv (or much much worse),or your kids? Of course, you could almays get custom load bullets that pack less of a punch, but thats more expensive (i think...) and for you to do it your self would cost an additional 300-400 dollars just for a reloading machine. not to menchin the powder, primers, shells, bullets, and time!<br><br>Recall the california bank robery (or what ever it was) , with the three body armoured thiefs and "semi-automatic" rifles, bullets were found im pretty sure, BLOCKS away from the scene.<br><br>fourth, its much easier and FASTER to line up the sites one a pistol, then it would be aiming a rifle.<br><br>Please disregard every action movie you see with guns in them, thats NOT how real guns are used, and NOT how they preform.<br><br>Its a much better decision to maybe, take a course, familiarize your self and your husband with firearms.<br>But im only 16, so heres my dads word of advice (but more commonly heard from my mothers mouth) THERE NOT TOYS!(especially the semi automatic ones!)<br><br><br>But, after you familiarize yourself, a small Ruger SP101, or the like, would be a nice choice. long trigger pull to let you make split second decisions, and a large caliber that is sure to stop the attacker, but not take out the nieghbors tv with him.<br><br>and try not to kill anyone! (as my mother used to yell!)

#7972 - 08/08/02 05:50 AM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!
johnbaker Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 384
Loc: USA
Barb,<br><br>I think we need to know a little more about your circumstances to make recommendations re guns to you: e.g., <br><br>1. From what do you seek protection: burglar in your home, assassin, mob, gang, or others<br><br>2. In what venue: bedroom, saferoom, house, apartment, ranch, etc.<br><br>3. Do you live in a populous or unpopulated area?<br><br>4. Your size, physical condition, & age?<br><br>Generally I tend to be less enthusiastic about using .22s & bolt guns for self protection, but your individual circumstances could conceivably make them desireable. We have some good friends who had a problem with burglars at their apartment. They made a well-reasoned decision to get a 20 gauge pump shotgun for potential defensive use for use by the wife when the husband was working nights & 24-hour shifts. Although they were not regular shooters, the wife grew up using a 20 ga. pump hunting with her father. She was very comfortable with one, & therefor her choice. To make good choices of guns, you should try to get some personal experience in using them. Some ranges rent shotguns & handguns, although I have not heard of any renting rifles. Perhaps you could go shooting with friends using their guns at target ranges. Also, shooters tend to be friendly & helpful to others seeking advice, so don't be bashful.<br><br>Many spouses are physically dimensioned very differently. Consequently what is a great & comfortable fit for your husband may not be for you, and vice versa. I am 6'2', have a size 17 neck & 34 sleeve. My wife on the other hand is a petite 5'2" who has ... commensurate other dimensions.<br>Guess what, her long guns have short stocks & mine have long stocks. I can contort my body enough to shoot them (although not easily or comfortably), but she really can't fit my long guns well enough to shoot them adequately. Handguns have similar problems. Differences in vision can also be a problem. So do some shooting & find out what fits you & what seems comfortable to each of you.<br><br>Do be sure to get education & training in the correct way to shoot, gun safety, & the moral, ethical, and legal ramifications of owning & using guns generally & especially in your legal jurisdiction, not to mention what happens if you use a gun on another person. Any interpersonal use of a gun will have consequences for which you need to be prepared. The NRA & possibly your state's gun associations have many materials on these subjects. Also some training courses are available from reputable, for-profit businesses. Gun clubs may have competitions which will help you train.<br><br>You may also want to do an "Advanced Search" on this website re: gun, pistol, shooting, etc. We've had a lot of discussion re defensive guns in the last 2 mos. or so. Be sure to look under the name: robb or Robb. He raised a good discussion in July re choice of handguns & shotguns.<br><br>We look forward to hearing more from you.<br><br>Good luck.<br><br>John

#7973 - 08/08/02 09:09 AM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

Barb, welcome. First off, opinions are like....well, you get the point.<br><br>Firearms are a very personal thing and comfort levels play a key role in determining what's right for you and your husband. Also $ plays an important factor. For a decent pistol you could easily buy a 12 ga for your husband and a 20 ga for yourself. I truly think that john baker and AyersTG summed it up very well. <br><br>http://www.equipped.org/us_primer.htm<br><br>There is no one answer, no perfect gun. Guns are tools. I'm amazed, truly amazed, at some of the responses so far. Lethal force is a serious subject with many inuendos. <br><br>If you would like to talk privately, feel free to private message me.<br><br>And MKII, though I truly appreciate your eagerness to learn and share, there are a couple issues.<br><br>"Second, if it is for in home use, its much much easier for you to use a pistol. place your self in the situation. in my honest opinion, a pistol would come out on top and a close quaters battle."<br>For CQB one of my pisols would almost be my last choice, (especially in my own home) second only to a large caliber bolt action scoped rifle.<br><br>"fourth, its much easier and FASTER to line up the sites one a pistol, then it would be aiming a rifle"<br>No it's not. Shotguns are very intuitive, have longer barrels, and have the advantage of buckshot or birdshot.<br><br>"a small Ruger SP101, or the like"<br>I do not recommend a large caliber revolver with a small frame and a very short barrel for anyone new to firearms.

#7974 - 08/08/02 01:06 PM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!
AyersTG Offline

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Clarification of a couple of things in my previous post:<br><br>1. I'm unsure of WHY kerosine seems to be stable enough for long term storage, as it's just another distillate - somewhere between gasoline and diesel, IIRC. It MAY be related to the ordinary uses of kerosine in the home, and perhaps if one is contemplating kerosine as a substitute for diesel engine fuel or as jet fuel, there MIGHT be stability issues. Or not. But anecdotal evidence is that it's much more stable than other fuels in long term storage.<br><br>2. I'm neither discouraging nor encouraging y'all from owning a firearm(s). You asked a loaded question (pun intended). Everyone who suggested "this" or "that" so far has given you reasonable suggestions, personal preferences or not. As Cooper says, the best gun for self-defense is the one you have with you... however, I think that we can suggest better choices for you to consider if we know a little about what your perceived needs/concerns are.<br><br>And for my aquaintances who HAVE made some suggestions already, my comments on some of the comments:<br><br>The 36s (357 magnum, 9mmx19, etc) are among the very worst IN REAL HOUSES for over-penetration of walls. Even recent advances in expanding bullet technologies have consistently been fairly problematic in that regard. I'm not saying they are bad, just pointing out that little tidbit. <br><br>I am NOT a fan of the 223/5.56 for self-defense, however, in REAL HOUSES, it has consistently been among the very "best behaved" with regard to over-penetration IF the shooter is using 55 grain or lighter thin-skinned bullets ("varmint" bullets). It will, of course, pass through at least one wall on a miss, of course.<br><br>The best close-range stopper in commonly used firearms is unquestionably a 12 gauge shotgun, with 16 and 20 gauge close enough to toss in as well. And just as unquestionably, at close range, even a load of very small #9 shot WILL shoot through a conventional interior wall-board covered stud wall. Just one (charge spread and energy loss prevents penetration of the next wall across the room). It may or may not pass through a "real" plastered wall - usually not on a 3 or 4 coat plastered wall. Knocks the snot out of the off side, but that's about it.<br><br>So is it a bad thing if what you are using passes through a wall? Well, that sort of depends on what's one the other side of the wall - a good guy or a bad guy.<br><br>More later if you are interested.<br><br>Tom

#7975 - 08/08/02 01:14 PM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

Once you've considered the legal and moral aspects of owning and using a firearm and still want to own one, then you need to determine what the main purpose for the gun will be and where it will more than likely be used. <br><br>It was recommended to myself and my wife by a friend of ours that if we are looking for a multi-purpose weapon that could be used to fetch grub, or could be used for recreation (I don't consider the taking of any life as recreational) or in the event of, can be used for close quarters self defense, that the shotgun would be the weapon of choice and I have to agree with him. My shotgun is a Remington 870 express in 12ga and my wifes is a smaller and lighter Mossburg 500 in 20ga. The combined purchase price of both weapons was less than the cost of my .45acp handgun. If the chips are on the line and I need the best all around defense weapon, I'll reach for my 870 every time. Just the sound of a round being chambered is enough to make a would be attacker rethink his intentions and situation. For hunting, you couldn't have a more versatile weapon as a shotgun. Just make sure to remove all the pellets before sinking your teeth into the pheasant or rabbit you've prepared. It's heck on the teeth if you don't. ;o) <br><br>For a good all around survival weapon, I don't think you could do much better than a .22 rifle, well, except for maybe one of the combo guns available today. I like the idea of a .22lr and 12ga combo gun but havn't done anything about it yet. Anyway, I like both the Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin semi-autos. Both are inexpensive as compared to many other similar rifles with the Marlin being almost downright cheap and from my experience, they are both reliable and accurate. Unless you live in California with their .05 per round tax, .22 ammo is dirt cheap, a 500 round box is relatively easy to carry and will provide lots of tablefare to a practiced shooter. <br>

#7976 - 08/08/02 03:31 PM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

I have a good friend who is a handloading, number crunching, ballistic expert type person. I think he liked firing howitzers a little too much in Vietnam. But anyway, he and I recently took wet magazines and tested a multitude of 38's and 357's. Wet magazines are not flesh and bone but you have to have some sort of test medium at times. Nearly every single 357 jacketed hollowpoint we tried plugged up and penetrated at least one foot. Most all were found intact with little mushrooming if any. <br>The big surprise was the old FBI load. (38 special, + P, 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint) It consistently penetrated 4 inches with a perfect mushroom. At that point we realized why the forensics people have been saying this round was so deadly. (Its also a joy in high speed double taps as it has low recoil. It produces a bit too much smoke, but has almost no flash at night)<br>Having that said; dont think Im pushing 36 caliber rounds as the do all end all. Im just stating what our tests showed. My personal experience confirms the overpenetration of 357s. Every animal over 50 lbs that I have shot with a 357 had to be run down because the bullet made a 36 caliber hole completely through them. Thats not very efficient from a self defense standpoint.<br>The pattern that I see is that the really effective handgun defense rounds are usually the heavy, soft bullets moving at 850-900 fps regardless of caliber. <br>I suppose that I will touch on the "other" 36 cals out there since Im on the subject. Given the existence of the 45acp, I have no use for them.

#7977 - 08/08/02 03:56 PM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!
Ade Offline

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 280
Barb,<br><br>Are you having fun yet, or are you pulling out clumps of hair and screaming, "Too much information!"<br><br>I'm feeling I should apologize for simply giving you staight answers to yours questions, particularly the gun question. As you can see, there are many viewpoints on this subject. One thing I want to make clear though is this: a semi-auto rifle is not an appropriate "inside the home" weapon. Indoors, you will be much better served with either a handgun or a shotgun. See previous posts on shotguns for more details. I should have asked what you would be protecting yourself from.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

#7978 - 08/08/02 05:38 PM Re: New at this, dumb questions I am sure!

Thanks to all that have posted! About the gun issue, a semi-auto. was recommended by several retailers where we have been looking, that is why we wanted to get independent opinions from someone NOT trying to sell to us. The one opinion that I would truly trust locally (my wonderful cousin) is a cop/special forces reservist who is poking around in or near Iraq right now, and we don't know when he will be back. (Please keep him in your prayers!)<br><br>We live in a semi-urban area, an upscale community (in the poor section, fortunately!), that is surrounded by woods and isolated homesteads. I believe that our area would be a target for looting in the worst case scenario, even though our home is older and smaller, and may be passed up.<br><br>We live in the deep south (on the Gulf) so heating oil is not a common thing around here. I will check the types of sources that you guys suggested for the kerosene. I truly appreciate it. <br><br>Bless you and thank all of you for the food for thought on weapons. That is the toughest decision we are heading toward for me, but I don't want to be stupid about it either.<br><br>Barb G

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