Hey everyone.I was just wondering;
if you were stuck in a snowed in car that was snowed in, is it better to leave the snow on the car for insulation as you wait for rescue or should you remove it??

I'm not a snow person (I hate the dreaded white stuff), but I would at least keep the exhaust pipe clear, so I could run the engine from time to time, and at least one door clear for exiting. Probably on the lee side of the vehicle, but I'm not sure about the drift thing (did I mention that I am not a snow person???) And the top might be nice, assuming that it is not white, so that chopper can see it...

You should keep the car reasonably clean so people can see it. During the Blizzard of '77 in Buffalo, some people had their cars run over by LVTP 7s (armored personnel carriers) from the local Marine Corps Reserve unit. During blowing snow, one lump in the snow looks like any other drift. The drifts were so high that I could just see over the top of the one in the street in front of my house from a second story window. Some cars were found in LaSalle park in the spring where they had been dumped along with the snow that they were concealed in.

I don't see this happening to me where I lived, but if I were to prepare for it I'd take a large, bright (safty orange maybe) tarp, 4-8 plastic shoping bags, a good bit of cordage and a knife.. along with the normal winter survival gear I'd take.. then if this Did happen to me I'd dig out of a rear window, Down then Up, not in a straight line (like for an igloo), I'd take the tarp, bags, and cord, and snow-anchor the tarp over the car so it could be seen and keep the TARP clear of snow.. I'd also want to try to make a inch or so hole down to the window on the Other side from the Top as a vent if I had some type of stove I was going to use.. then just keep both windows open.. that should keep you decently warm, safe, and visible.

I've actually done this as an experiment while on a 4WD vacation in Colorado.

Forecast was for a brief but heavy snowfall. I picked a 4WD road close to what I figured would be a plowed County road (where I could walk out if necessary) and let myself get snowed in. At 11,000'.

Now, I was WELL EQUIPPED with 3 sleeping backs, lots of longjohns and insulating clothing, food for a month, stove to melt snow for water, etc.

It was a psychological barrier that was being broken because I KNEW I had what I needed to be safe and comfortable.

There was probably 18" to 24" of snow that fell and the 2nd night it went to below zero. Then the sun came out and snow melted or consolidated and I could drive out. I never ran the Jeep for heat. Interior glass was pretty frosty from condensation from breathing.

Learned- with lots of gear for staying warm and hydrated and fed (no cooking food) it was totally a psychological exercise. Boredom set in though I had a book about Mallory and Irviine on Mt. Everest in the 1920's to read and set some REAL perspective :-)

Sleeping bags travel in the car with us - always. Insulated coveralls and more coats are added in winter.

Unimogbert

I think you should remove snow, especially the exhaust pipe while you're using the heater. Take advantage of the heater while the motor is operable to dry any damp clothing. It should be a temporary shelter because any non-running vehicle is a heat sink.

Then you build a snow shelter outside of the car and the road and of course you should remove the snow, you may need the tires as emergency fuel for a fire. Note that it's best to add tires to an already burning wood fire. And you can use the vehicle's seats and cushions to use as insulating pads for the inside of a snug snow shelter such as a snow trench. Learn how to build them.

Also carry a winter sleeping bag and two Evazote pads for each members and make sure to keep them in the cab rather than the trunk where the vehicle is coldest.

Some snow house designs have a cold air well. Snow is a good insulator and the Canadian soldiers are even taught to use snow to shield against heavy machine gun shooting in the Bay James, you'd be surprised. (They are taught the art of survival in subarctic climate by the Cree Rangers as a step towards defending Canada's sovereignty of the Northwest Passage.)

Orientation and surroundings of the vehicle should be considered. Sunlight entering a cleared window might warm up the interior, and snow left on top of the car may help insulate.

Snowholes aren't warm, as they usually stabilize right around the freezing point, but they may well be warmer than the vehicle.

You might want to rotate between a sun-warmed vehicle during the day, and the snowhole at night.

It would certainly be interesting to see some research on this very subject. Any volunteers? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sue

Actually, building a snowhole correctly, will stay at or slightly above freezing. And, with a candle, can remain quite liveable. The downside is the wetness. Even with super smooth walls, it will still be damp inside. But, as a place to weather out a couple of days, it isnt bad. Not sure if a car would be warmer or not (the idea of it heating up more during the day make sense), but, as glass isnt a good insulator, I personally would choose a snowcave/hole over a car, at least for sleeping. Besides, you can lay down fairly comfy in a snowhole.
Both require venting (especially if a candle is used). Snowholes can be vented with a skipole (which remains through the hole), or a stick. A car would require you to crack the windows.

Thanx guys for all the replies. Thats why I joined this forum, to learn from other like-minded people. What do you guys think about putting a mylar sheet on one of the windows? keeping all the others covered in snow and setting up an orange cone up on the roof so you can be spotted.Would that help in retaing any heat that you may have in the car from a candle or the heater?

Actually, it is best to always pull a pop-up camper with a heater and a couple spare bottles of fuel.

The reason that I say this is that my own situation often mirrors that of the Kim family. My family owns a pair of four-door sedans. We could not afford a larger vehicle. On our weekend jaunts, we often have my wife and myself, two young kids (four and five years old), and one mother-in-law (who is over 60, but probably more adventurous and in better shape than many 30-year-olds). The trunk already has the basics: heat-sheets, folding shovel, camp stove, candle lantern, first-aid-kit, flashlights, bottled water, water purifications, lots of cordage and other micellaneous stuff. We also throw our jackets in there before we set out.

If I were to actually stuff five sleeping bags in the trunk, then there would be absolutely no room left for other stuff. Christmas time is coming. Last weekend, we drove up to Brekenridge, and spend more money than I am willing to admit at a toy store. If we had sleeping bags, the kids would have been holding their Christmas presents in their laps for the whole two-hour drive home.

Of course it is easy to just say "carry more stuff," and this can work for one or two people. But, if you have a pretty packed car, you have to make some sacrifices. I am obviously not going to leave one of my kids behind just so that I can carry more gear. I can't afford a larger vehicle.

Of course, I might be able to fit some of the smaller sleeping bags in there, but the better bags are over $100 each (I would love to have a Wiggy's, but probably can't afford it for a few years.). Added to this is the fact that I am both tall and wide, and simply cannot fit into a regular-sized sleeping bag. So, the only bags that are in my budget range are the cheap, large ones that take up 1/3 of a trunk.

So my point here is just that everybody has different limits. I am one of those people who should "know better," but I just cannot be prepared as I want to due to various external reasons.

I know what you mean. I myself don't even own a car right now. So when I travel I'm at the mercy of other's gear and they don't care for preparedness and survival at all. This is the ideal according to they guy who wrote a book I just read, Winter Wise by Monty Alford. At least if you understand the principles it's better than nothing. Memento Mori, and Carpe Diem guys!

Frankie

When I was a kid (pre-seatbelt law days), my parents would pack a lot of stuff on the floor up to the level of the back seat, then cover everything with some blankets.

They did threaten to pack US in the trunk a few times, but never actually followed through.... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You do what you can with what you've got. All the survival gear you could own rarely surpasses a good helping of common sense.

Sue

Something is always better then nothing though.. if space is an issue for you though, and you stil want something to go with you could get some Emergency Survival Bivvys to put in your car, and if you don't think it would be big enough you could add a Two Person Emergency Survival Blanket in there too.. if you want a down bag that can compress to a tiny ball for yourself but don't want to shell out the change, you could make one (I remember seeing a websight that showed you how about a year ago) that is custom fit to you.. and too, there is always shareing a blanket in the back seat, a surpluss wool or wool emergency blanket would work, just lay it flat in your storage area like your trying to protect the car from spills and stuff and it takes up almost no room.
Don't take this the wrong way, I understand what you were saying and I agree with it, I'm just trying to state some options for people that can't fit the kitchen sink in the back of their economy car (like me)

I don't normally have to deal with snow but temps can get rather low at times (20's) and the humidity is almost always high (75-85 pct). Looking at the distinct possibility of having to bug out from work (on a towboat) and facing 4-7 days cross country hiking to get home presents some problems because I am allowed only a small amount of space on the boat.
I plan to take my bedroll made up of 2 flat sheets, 1 fitted sheet, a falsa blanket, and a pillow. My Army poncho will fold in half and make up the outer shell of a "sleeping bag" that should suffice for "most" of the temps that we get.
This is gear that goes to the boat with me, plus a BOB and a duffle bag with more equipment, food, water, and a few niceties.

For those who must travel in winter with the possibility of being stranded, add a auxiliary heater to your vehicle. Webasto and Eberspacher both produce air and coolant heaters for gas and diesel fueled vehicles. I have a Webasto coolant heater. These types of heaters are very fuel efficient and also preheat your vehicle to enhance starting, pri-warming the interior, and melt ice on the windshield. These are the same heaters used on large trucks and boats. These heaters are common up north.

With these type heaters your fuel will last much longer and allows easier starting when recharging your vehicles batteries. The only precaution is to keep the inlet and exhaust clear to the heater.

For those who cannot self install, the price is less than $2000 for most cars and trucks

Remove it, otherwise you are just another snow drift. A close encounter with a snow plow will ruin your day (most people who get stuck get stuck next to roads), and being missed in an air search can be lethal (if you are stuck on the "scenic" route). While I agree with Burt about it turning the car into an ersatz igloo, if you are planning on trying to drive out, removing a little snow many times uses a lot less energy than moving a lot of snow once, or worse, ice if it melts against the car and freezes (say, in the gaps in the steering or the brakes). And if you are out of shape, less likely to lead to distressing circulatory issues.

Also, if you are using your heater for warmth, you kinda need to keep the air moving, otherwise you'll feel a little light headed, then sleepy, then it will go dark. Can't do that with at least four inches of snow on top of everything.

And if you are like me and claustrophobic, a snowed in car is a fate worse than death. Just like an elevator in a black out. *shudders* Although the quirk is, I've never had the panics in a snow cave- I don't question my demons, I just roll with it.

It sometimes gets down into the 60's or even into the 50's here. I usually have a spare jacket and a rain/wind shell in my car. When it gets into the 50's...man that's cold!

Ok, I know what you are thinking..."a$$h*le!" Yeah, I've been called that before.

Actually, I just wanted to chime in with my two cents and wish everyone, especially those of you where it is cold enough to matter, a safe, prepared and happy holiday season. For those of you who are not PC, Merry Christmas!

If we're lucky it'll go UP to the 50's today here in the Garden State.
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Winter is just starting and will get much worse before it gets better.

Oh, I wouldn't think that. I might think "wimp", but I suppose that is the price you pay for the climate. That, and the inflated prices.

You can call me a warm wimp. I can handle that.

I can also call you a wimp who will never know the joys of a snowy morning, and can't go sledding or skiing. Poor guy. You have my sympathy. There is plenty of room over here in the big 48 for you if you ever want to escape from those horrible conditions.

I've played in the snow a little bit in Washington, Colorado, Minnesota, Massachussetts and Canada so I do know the joys of a snowy morning with a warm drink. I do not know how to ski though. You may not know this, but we have snow in Hawaii too.

But then again, I can't escape. Life sentence. I only get out for a little while for good behavior. Maybe if you behave, you can get out and get some sun down here.