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#79095 - 12/17/06 10:02 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
bmisf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 185
I also think that this still falls into the arena of personal responsibility. It was a long chain of bad judgments and unfortunate circumstances that led to Mr. Kim's death, most of which were his own choices.

I don't feel the "government" is responsible for this. Signage should be correct, gates should be maintained, and roads that are meant for winter use should be kept plowed and safe. But there's only so much you can do to prevent people from taking wrong turns, driving into the mountains in a storm, entering onto unmaintained roads, or bushwhacking into a steep canyon without the right equipment and information.

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#79096 - 12/17/06 10:55 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA

Certainly not suggesting otherwise. I'm big on personal responsbility. But I don't think that means we don't want a good SAR capability.

-john

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#79097 - 12/17/06 11:06 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
bmisf Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 185
Oh, no question on the SAR.

As an avid snow camper, backpacker and pilot, I've taken steps toward training to help out, including getting my WFR certificate. I believe that those same skills will also help keep me personally from needing to be rescued, though even the most cautious and prepared of us can and do fall into trouble.

If the question is how much the government should be responsible for SAR, that's a tough one, as we to balance revenues and other public programs with what unfortunately is probably a niche need. It's fortunate that there are people willing to donate their time and risk their own safety to rescue others (whether those others got into trouble accidentally or through irresponsibility).

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#79098 - 12/18/06 03:33 AM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
cedfire Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 659
Loc: Orygun
We have well-equipped "USAR" Teams (Urban Search and Rescue) scattered about in every state for responding to urban disasters; it would be nice to have a rural equivalent.

Interesting story about the plane crash, too. The locals knew right where to go.

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#79099 - 12/18/06 05:57 AM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...The locals knew right where to go..."

They often do...
_________________________
OBG

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#79100 - 12/18/06 07:02 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
One thing to keep in mind with federally funded USAR Teams is that the membership is generally from career Fire Departments. Few, if any can argue that diverting a portion of one’s career staff for a major disaster is not justified. However, short staffing one’s department for an SAR operation is much harder to justify to the jurisdictions supplying the career personal. I doubt that the citizens who end up fronting overtime costs for the remaining personal, who would need to cover the shifts of deployed personnel for an SAR mission, would be too thrilled with the added tax burden and the diversion of necessary services away from their needs.

Many SAR and Technical Rescue Teams are volunteer or associated with local Fire and/or Sheriff Departments. The dedication of these individuals, I believe would never be matched by Statewide career SAR Teams. The cost to the taxpayer for the number of missions on a per capita base would be hard to justify. The United States Coast Guard is one very important exception to that statement.

Monies would be better spent in supporting the efforts of “professional” volunteer SAR and Technical Rescue Teams, who in many cases must pay out-of-pocket for their training and/or equipment. The word “Professional” applies to any rescue person, whether career (paid) or volunteer, who meets and maintains the standards for their specialty, as most jurisdictions require the same level of course work and training.

Of course, I am clearly bias and have very strong feelings on this issue, so take what I say with a grain of salt, although it be a big grain.

Pete

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#79101 - 12/19/06 07:45 PM Re: After 7 days, I would have too
GardenGrrl Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 26
What varieties of Pine trees are up there? I'm wondering if Pine Nuts would be available. A heck of a lot easier to harvest than roots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_nut

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#79102 - 12/19/06 08:01 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
GardenGrrl Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 26
"As always clothes appropriate for conditions, maybe not always artic sleeping bags but at least snow boots and appropriate jacket. You may not be prepared to be lost, but at least be prepared to at least change a tire."

This is an excellent point. If you (an imaginary, hypothetical "you" who doesn't read this forum) think it's too much effort (too "paranoid") to prepare for the unforseen emergencies, at least prepare for the common daily set-backs! Cold Weather, for example, happens to people whether they are lost of not, in the wilderness or in the city, even safe in your own backyard you can encounter Cold Weather. So -- prepare for it. Own water-resistant pants and good warm boots. Take them with you when you drive around in the winter. Whether you are lost in the backwoods or forced to walk three blocks for a pay phone, clothing appropriate for the weather is a must.

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#79103 - 12/19/06 08:17 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
GardenGrrl Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 26
Okay, I just gotta say . . .

When I lose my car keys, I start the search by looking in the place I found then the *last* time they were lost. When I lose track of my husband in the hardware store I always head for the power tools, because that's where I found him the last time he was "lost". If there is a history of people getting lost on that road, shouldn't that be the first place rescuers search?

They asked for a map of a scenic route and someone actually handed over a map showing Bear Camp Road to be a viable choice? Mountains + Scenic Route + Winter = Bad Idea. Do not hand out these maps! Refuse politely! And who prints these maps and makes them available to innocent tourists? Why isn't there a notation on the map saying "Roads marked by asterix are closed during the winter. Please do not try to drive on these roads."? I have a vague childhood memory of hiking in Colorado using a Forest Service map that had markings to indicate which places a hikier should avoid during hunting season, so a similar map . . .

And I agree with the poster who asked, why would anyone want to drive on a scenic route after dark? You can't see anything anyway. Might as well stick to the highways.


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#79104 - 12/19/06 11:53 PM Re: James Kim: Snowbound Vehicle Info and Analysis
ducktapeguy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 358
Quote:
They asked for a map of a scenic route and someone actually handed over a map showing Bear Camp Road to be a viable choice? Mountains + Scenic Route + Winter = Bad Idea. Do not hand out these maps! Refuse politely! And who prints these maps and makes them available to innocent tourists?


Sorry, but who gets to decide if it's a "Bad Idea"? I Iike to make my own decision on where to go and not have them limited for me. I would hope if I asked for a scenic route, people don't give me directions to the main highway because its "safer". Somtimes people aren't prepared and make unfortunate mistakes, that doesn't mean the rest of us should be punished by limiting our travel.

I don't think the Forest Service should have any responsibility in this case, period. Doesn't matter if they locked the gate or not, if the maps showed this route, or if the lock was cut, or if someone else got lost and died there last week. It's sad to think they have to protect themselves against lawsuits because of peoples own actions.

It is unfortnate that things like this happen, but that's just how life is, sometimes people die. It doesn't mean the government should feel the need to restrict access to these places from the public. At most, maybe put up a couple of well marked signs, but that's about as far as it should go.

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