Okay, I need some advise on cool-weather camping. Saturday night I got really cold as I camped out in the backyard to watch the Leonids meteor shower. My sleeping gear consisted of a ground sheet, then a 5" thick air mattress, a 1" closed-cell foam pad under me and a lightweight mummy bag, and fleece blanket on top. I was wearing wool socks, boxers, long-sleeve thermal top and a wool watch-cap. Before laying down I had some cookies and plenty of water. There was no wind but the temps got down to 40-45F. Fog rolled in around midnight making most things damp.

End result: really cold. Not to the point of shivering or hypothermia, but still dang uncomfortable.

Would a wool blanket have been better than fleece? I've tried those air-activated heat-packs before but they never worked in my sleeping bag.

Any tips for staying warm while watching the stars (no shelter) on cold nights?

-Blast

well a good sleepingbag on top of a well insulating pad, should do just fine. Maybe a bivy, against the dampness/wetness.

Your problem is probably a not adequate sleeping bag. You either need a better one of you should add more insulation. A fleece or wol blanket doesn't really matter, it depends on there thickness and weave.

I've never had any luck with those chemical handwarmers either. But I have one of these and it works great. Only problem is that you need to boil it to reactivate it. I've used mine about 2 dozen times over the last 15 years and it's still going strong. I generally fire mine up when I wake up shivering at about 2 AM and it sure takes the chill off inside the sleeping bag. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Were you wearing them all day or did you put them on before climbing into the sleeping bag? Been taught to change to dry undergarments before going to sleep for the ones being worn during the day are damp therefore make you cold

You put these on dry right before bed, correct? At least the socks and the thermal top. If they were the same ones you wore during the day then they would be wet, even if you didn't think you were sweating any. Air mattresses are not good insulators. At least you had a foam pad on top of it, but I'd recommend using just a ThermaRest style pad (air mattress stuffed with foam inside, basically). If you pad is not full length, wad up clothing and other gear and put it under the foot of your sleeping bag. Mummy bags are at their warmest when the hood is drawn up and snuggled around your face. The inside draft collar should be tightened around your shoulders as well (if you bag has one of these - doubtful, for a bag used in Texas that left you cold in the 40-45 degree range - you may not even have a hood on it).

[edit]
Same thought, same time, as obmeyer. On the dry socks/top. We were both typing and posting at about the same time.
[/edit]

You were right, it was the same clothes I had on all day. They probably were damp.

As for the sleeping bag, it does have a drawstring hood and collar which I cinched down tight. However it has little to no filling. It was a $20 bag from either Majar Surplus and Survival or Cheaper than Dirt.

I wasn't sure if the air mattress would help or not (sure is comfortable, though). I figured it would get me off the heat-sucking ground which is good, but since it's just several big air chambers the insulative effect seemed to be nil.

This is good stuff. Keep the info coming!

-Blast, who really should try to get some work done today.

In theory the big airmatresses sound great get you 5" off the ground but in reality the air circulates thus freezing your backside.
You had a closed-cell on top of your airmattress you said though so that should have helped. Next time ditch the 5" one.

It also sounds like your sleeping bag is very much sub-par as 40-45 is not that cold and i'm sure a $30 coleman from wal-mart would work better than what you have.

I think you simply need to retry it with a better sleeping bag and just the closed-cell pad.
The $80 Coleman from wallyworld has served me well as has the $80 MARMOT fromt Sierra Trading post. Both are poly bags rated to -15 I believe.
I've had them down to around 10 with 25+ mp winds and been toasy w/out a blanket ontop of me sleeping in boxers only (no beenie or socks yet).

The closed-cell foam pad should have offset the cold conduction of the air mattress. I think you were losing your heat from the top -- the cheap bag.

Changing to dry clothes is more important than you would think. Even if you changed everything except your socks, you would probably still be cold.

You might also consider wearing a wool watchcap under the bag hood. Or a baclava that covers your head and neck.

How was the meteor shower? I planned to watch and got sidetracked.

Sue

Yep, definately a better bag. Dry clothes help, but sleeping with less clothes on helps more. Clothes insulate your body from itself, skin to skin is best. Its like wearing mittens versus gloves.

I did have a wool stocking/watch cap but on my big melon it was stretched a bit thin. One size does not fit all.

Fog rolled in about midnight blocking my view of the stars. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> It did give everything else a really beautiful glow so I stayed outside by the glowing embers of fire. It was very peaceful. Cold, but peaceful. Sometimes fire therapy is vital.

-Blast

I want to ad my 2 cents worth. I am in Alaska and find myself camping in the course of trying to find bears, sheep, and moose on occasion. I have camped when the thermometer has reached into the single digits. Sir, what you need to do is invest in A Wiggy's sleeping bag system. I am in no way connected to, nor trying to advertise for them, but I can tell you those bags will save your life. No BS. They somehow wick sweat, or even moisture from a jump in a lake away from you while you are in the sleeping bag. it is truly amazing and they work. I will NEVER sleep in any other sleeping bag, even if I am deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, this is the bag that will go with me even though the AF issues a pretty good sleep system. They are on the web at www.wiggys.com
Truly outstanding product. I invite you to just look them up and read some info that is on their website. However, what you had on the ground for your backside was fine.

I agree that it sounds like you need to upgrade to a better sleeping bag. Everything else sounds pretty good. The air mattress won't insulate, but the closed cell pad should have taken care of that. With a better bag you wouldn't have needed the blanket, either. A wind/waterproof bivy bag will help a lot, too.

One tip we use snow camping in the Sierras is to put a hot water bottle in the foot of the sleeping bag. You have to melt snow for water, anyway, so the last time you melt a pot of snow at night, heat it until it's warm (NOT HOT!). Pour it into your Nalgene bottle, seal it in a 1 gallon ziplock baggie, then another, then put it inside your sleeping bag all the way at the foot. It'll keep you warm for hours. Just don't let it leak.

Kevin B.

MMULLINS,

I have a brother up in Fairbanks, Alaska who swears by Wiggly's bags. They seem overkill for Texas though. Saturday night here was pretty much as cold as it gets. Last winter we had frost three times and that was a big deal. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I swung by Academy Sports (local Outdoorsy store chain) over lunch and looked at bags. The problem was they were all too short. I'm 6'5", and 72" mummy bag just doesn't fit. The main reason I bought the bag I have now was that it's 90" long (outside measurement, inside length maybe 86"). I shove my clothes down in the bottom of it so they'll be somewhat warm in the morning.

What I'd really like to do is find a liner or cover for this bag to up it's warmth even if this involves sewing something myself (well, actually DW would do the sewing, I would supply the dinner at a nice resturant as payment <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

-Blast

Watch the next meteor shower from a beach in Hawaii?

I was going to suggest the head cover and hot water bottle at your feet, but those already mentioned.

Maybe the fleece blanket inside the sleeping bag instead of on top.

I can also envision a Blast burito, with Blast rolled up in a wool blanket, inside a bivy bag, on top of a foam pad, on ground high enough for fog not to roll down onto you, with a wool cap and foot warmer. Just got your face showing out of the bivy puka watching the stars.

Some suggestions below for a "proper" liner...however I found some fleece zippered sleeping bags at Walmart for $8.00 that would fit the bill nicely as an add-on to the inside of your sleeping bag (claims to make your sleeping bag's rating temperature drop another 15 degrees). Also just look for a "long" sleeping bag since you are tall. If you do get a different sleeping bag, make sure to get a poly-bag instead of a down bag because of the "moisture" factor. Best of luck from Oklahoma...

P.s. That foam pad is one area where you shouldn't skimp if your going to camp/sleep in the outdoors very often. I balked at the prices of thermarest until my best friend (ice/rock climber and tri-athlete) let me borrow his for a weekend. I ordered one the following monday.

examples:

Liner:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductD...vcat=REI_SEARCH

Long Sleeping Bag:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductD...MPING_HIKING_LD

Nothing but down filled bags has ever worked for me. Always keep me warm. One needs to make sure they are DRY though, otherwise they are of no use.

Aloha just reminded me: cold air flows just like water down slopes, and settles in the lowest point. Try not to be sleeping there.

Sue

You just described the bag I had throughout Boy Scouts. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Mmm, I wonder if DW would let me drag the couch out back for the next stellar show...

-Blast

Try a trash bag. Sometimes something as simple as pulling a trash bag up on to your sleeping bag from the bottom will give you an extra margin of warmth if you're cold. I wouldn't do it on a regular basis because the bag won't breathe. I would use it only as a measure when you find the sleeping bag isn't quite cutting it and you need to warm up a few degrees more.

This is especially useful if you're group camping and someone discovers their sleeping gear isn't keeping them warm enough. A simple trash bag can often boost the warmth of their bag enough to help them make it through night.

Regards,

Tom

Rather than leap to what I do I'll offer a book that explains why you get cold and how to prevent it. Knowing the WHY is very important - and that's part of what these forums are all about.

COLD COMFORT by Glenn Randall. It's not a new book but 20 years ago it revolutionized my ability to stay warm while camping here in Colorado.
Talks about the fact that our bodies transpire moisture thru the skin which then affects our insulation layers. Different insulating materials and techniques can be applied to handle each situation (heavy activity vs no activity)


Unimogbert

How about switching the Boxers for Thermal Bottoms ?

I did this when camping on snow without a tent when I wanted to make sure the foot end of my bag didn't get wet. And the foot end of my bag got soaking wet, then froze solid. It's amazing how much water vapor your body puts out, even asleep in the cold. Nonbreathable cover = wet sleeping bag.

Kevin B.

My feet tend to be the coldest part of me when sleeping out in cold weather, so I take my coat, zip it up and slip it over the foot of my sleeping bag.

Better bag, lose the air mattress.

I tend to sleep cold, so I often use both a thermarest and a closed cell foam pad under me. I made a couple of simple web straps to go around them to hold them together during the night.

I once made a mummy liner out of a GI poncho liner. It seemed to help with the el cheapo bag I was using a the time. You could probably make one out of a fleece blanket also. But a better bag is easier...

I spent five years in a scout troop that camped every month year round. My favorite trips were the winter ones. I would absolutely get rid of the airmattress. if you can double up on the foam mattress that would be great. If not do you have any "excess" pine trees? pine boughs work beautifully. Or how about 6-8 inches of pine needles? And maybe wear some thermal bottoms and a knit cap? (if that was allready in the list of items worn ignore me) This should really help out.

Early in Oct this year I was camping in the Pocono Mtns on a weekend trip with my Jeep club. Friday night temps went down into the low 40's and wind was blowing 25-40MPH. Even though I was in a tent I had forgotten to take my winter sleeping bags and only had lightweight summer ones with me. I had 2 extra blankets (1 under me and 1 over me and was still cold). Then I remembered that I had 2 space blankets in my BOB in the back of my Jeep.
I wrapped myself up in them then crawled into my sleeping bags and was fine for the rest of the night.
Might want to try this next time.

I'm going to echo lose the air matress, and put foam under you.

Blast, what is your bag rated to? If it doesn't have one listed, figure about 60 degrees, on the living room couch. :P A better bag, more around your body and head in terms of insulation, and a "snuggle bottle" full of warm-to-hot water. If you fill a lexan bottle with boiling water and cap it, in half an hour is just enough time to make it managable, and it is still pretty toasty two or three hours later. Stuff it in a spare watch cap and it stays snuggly longer.

And there is no shame in admiting you have a snuggle bottle, it takes a man to say that. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You might consider down booties, or probably more suitable for these kind of conditions, PrimaLoft® booties. Maybe even the whole sleeping bag should be in Primaloft. Primaloft was designed for the US army to replace goose down because it stays warm even when wet.

www.primaloft.com

*sigh* But the air mattress is so comfy! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't recall any rating on the bag so you are probably right about the 60F. Of course, usually that is fine for Texas. Looks like I have another item for my Christmas list.

-Blast

Try a Thermarest Camp Dream Time model, that thing is about three inches. My Camp Rest model is only 1.5" or so, and it is very comfortable to sleep on, the Dream Time has gotta be heaven. It will be expensive, and big and heavy if you backpack it tho. Add a regular closed cell pad if you want, and you have real sleeping comfort...

OBG,

The Dream Time looked really sweet until I saw the price. $200+ <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

For that sort of money I could wrap myself in a reindeer hide. *sigh* Why couldn't I be rich instead of so dang good-looking? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

Yeah, they are kind of expensive, but then sometimes you get what you pay for...

I'll echo the three key points I saw posted here.

First, dump the air mattress. Even with a good pad on top of it you are still going to be chillier sleeping on top of all that air. Get a good mattress. Therma-rests style mattresses rock. I have an REI UL Longthat rocks for light/fast backpacking in moderate weather and goes for about $80. I also have a HUGE Sportsman Warehouse pad that went for $40, it is heavy and inflates to 2" but it is as comfortable as my Coleman air mattress. However, my old standby is a Ridgerest large foam pad. While not as comfortable as a thermarest, it doesn't puncture. I know that therma-rest gives their inflatable mattress high R values, but for my comfort and warms I always use a good foam pad when there is snow on the ground.

Second, carry a set of clothes JUST for sleeping in. None of this sleeping nude garbage, unless you only have wet clothes. When it drops below freezing I wear a set of Patagonia long underwear and wool socks that I keep in a dry bag in my pack just for sleeping. I also make sure I have a dry hat to wear at night. I tend to keep the clothes I plan on wearing in the AM in my sleeping bag as long as they aren’t wet.

Get a GOOD sleeping bag. If you plan on car camping, there are great sleeping bags available for under $50. I have a Coleman 30F bag I got at Wal-mart for under $40. If you are going to be trekking/hiking spend the money for a good sleeping bag. Down or synthetic insulation is up to you. I have a selection of both for various conditions and they all work well. Down is warm, but useless if there is any possibility of it getting wet. Get a bag that is rated for at least 10 degrees lower than the lowest temperature you ever expect to encounter, this requires so serious thought a research on your part. IMHO, I would look at a system like Mountain Hardware that allows you to build a system that can be combined to give you a bag for just about every condition. Get a over 20F bag, a under 20F bag and the Bivy Sack and you have a system that will provide you coverage for just about anything you’d encounter in CONUS. This is an expensive setup, but worth it if you are going to be out and about in all weather. However, North Face, Mountain Hardware, REI, Sierra Design, Marmot, Kelty and Big Angus are all good brands (there are probably more, but these I have used and trust). It is a good time of year to get a bag dirt cheap, I bought a North Face Cat’s Meow for $40 new last year after Thanksgiving!

And lastly buy a good non-disposable space blanket non-disposable space blanket and put it under you pad. Ever see a photo of a wildland firefighting crew spiked-out? They are always laying on a space blanket or have one over the top of them, or both.

"Sigh" Blast, that's just the price we pay is all! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Yeah I'd definately look at a better rated bag. I've slept in low 40 degree weather in a cheap 40 degree rectangular Kelty bag and it was bearable. A decent mummy bag should easily handle that temperature. Besides the well-known quality brands, don't overlook the Coleman Exponent line. It's not the usual Wal-Mart level of Coleman quality, but something competitive with the better backpacking brands at a lower price. Not a market leader, but they're a bargain if you don't mind a little more weight.

The Coleman Exponent line is good quality, but on average heavier and bulkier then the equivilant from some other brands. Great stuff for car camping and shorter trips though.

Aloha Blast,

Here's another chance for you...

The Geminid meteor shower is between the 7th and 16th of December and is predicted to peak on the 14th.

Cool! Either the 9th or the 14th I'll be camping up in central Texas away from the light-flooded sky of Houston.

-Blast

When my son crossed over from Cubs to Scouts, I went to Sam's Club and bought a 3 inch self inflating foam matress. It was certainly better than sleeping on the ground like we did in scouts when I was a youth, but I still was somewhat uncomfortable and had trouble getting to sleep (bad back). I upgraded to a 6 inch Coleman air matress and got the best nights sleep camping ever. When we went backpacking at Philmont, I had to go light weight and got a 1.5 in Thermorest (Campmore, they frequently run sales on "seconds"). Slept well, but I think that had more to do with exhaustion than comfort.

I hear a lot of "get rid of your air matress" in these posts. My recommendation is keep the air matress and get a warmer sleeping bag or more insulation between you and the matress. I don't mind sleeping a little on the cool side, as long as I can get to sleep. I have a -5 degree bag that works very well for winter camping. If you are carrying gear long distances, then you need to go light weight and a self inflating foam matress is better. If not, go for comfort. If you are young enough and your back can conform to the ground, go for the thinner foam. If you are like me and wake up after a night on the ground with thin insulation, and feel like Quasimodo, beef up the insulation between you and the air matress until the heat loss to the air matress is tolerable.

Oh no, I didn't mean get rid of your air matresses for all camping, but we were discussing cold weather camping.

I dislike the huge infaltable air matresses, but for many they are great when it is warm out. I prefer my hammok though.

The reason why I don't like air matresses when it is cold is simple.

What is an airmatress? A ruber/plastic bag that you put air into. So you have a single air pocket between you and the ground, which conducts the heat from that air pocker faster than you can warm it. Since it is a single, big air pocket, it takes a long time for you to heat it near to body tempurature in the first place, even if the ground wasn't stealing your hard won and well used calories from it. And the matterial itself usually has nothing in the way for heat retention- the only advantage that this would have over a hammock is that ever warmth has stayed in the air away when you get a gust of wind.

Foam pads, on the other hand, are a collection of little tiny air pockets (easier to heat) trapped in a semi-solid material.

Also, the air mattresses sometimes get brittle in the cold, and the moisture that you blew into it while inflating has a habit of turning into ice, which then turns into water, and is very, very hard if not impossible to get out in the woods, adding ot the weight in your pack.

For warm weather, sure, they work, but for the weight, I find a foam pad more comfortable.

Size is another reason that I dislike air mattresses. My BIG, very comfortable and inexpensive Sportsman's Warehouse thermo-rest style mattress takes up less than half the space of an air mattress, is easier to setup and much simpler to repair (although I haven’t punctured a thermo-rest style mattress in years). Even when car camping (truck camping in my case) it is nice to save space and weight.
My air mattresses are reserved for guests at home now, too much of a PITA in the field.

In my case air-filled sleeping pad made a huge difference. Definitely warmer then the closed-cell type.

While this may be true at times, it does not always have to be the case. With proper equipment and proper setup you can be warm in just about any tempature that is survivable. After a few nights where I was not as warm as I would have liked, I decided to fix the problem.There still may be times when the gear I have with me is inadaquate for the current conditions and I have to suffer a little, good planning and preperation has kept those nights few and far between and freak situations where I didn't plan on staying out all night.

Blast:

Sorry I am replying late here. I think everyone mentioned some good and useful ideas. I have very limited experience with air mattresses especially ones that large, which sound to me like a "extra-bed" for the house. My experience is with the older Coleman inflatable style camping mattresses that always seemed to leak even when brand new! I do know that the air mattress will be the same air temp as the outside air, which was already mentioned.

I have noticed one thing everyone has not mentioned, so I will. You state the air was damp from fog. This was a part of the problem that I can see. Fog and heavy rain will dampen the air and even at 40-45 degrees you will become cold. Damp air will permeate and also dampen most clothing. If your sleep clothing was also damp (usually from sweat) and the inside of your bag was also damp, I am certain this all contributed to the fact you were quite cold. I speak from experience as I usually spend one damp and rainy, or foggy night outdoors when camping. I usually sleep quite miserably during a stormy night, and you cannot seem to make a fire fast enough in the morning. The best recourse is of course a shelter system to keep moisture out (e.g. a tent) this way your clothing and bag have a chance to breathe.

I would be curious to know how wet your sleeping bag and fleece cover were when you finally got up and broke camp even if it was in the backyard!

Take care and try again.

Stargazer

I'm with OldBaldGuy on this one. A proper bag, a thermarest, and a closed cell foam pad.

It's amazing how much body heat you can loose through contact with the ground.

Another excellent point was dry a dry sleep kit. Even in temperate weather, I keep one outfit clean and reserved for for sleep (thermals, shorts, whatever). Besides the retarding the "clammy factor" when cold, it really makes a difference in your comfort, and I like to be comfortable when I sleep.

Here is the setup I used for my last snowshoeing trip. We set up the tent right on top of the snow, and I was perfectly warm. When I woke up in the am there was ice on the tent, and icicles inside from the moisture in our breath, but I was fine and warm. It boils down to this: a good tent (this wont work for stargazing obviously), a good bag, and a good thermal pad.

Tent: North Face Mountian 25
Bag: Moonstone Maxima 0deg bag
Pad: Thermarest

Clothing I wear for sleep: Thin set of capaleine long underwear, wool hat. Thats it. In my experience the more clothes you wear in your sleeping bag the more your body has expend energy to warm up the colder you will be. Of course if your bag is not suited for the conditions you will have to wear clothes.

All an air matress does is put a large volume of cold air right next to your body. Makes for a cold night.