My wife and I are organizing a small 4H group and I am donating the gear. The children so far are all five year old girls.

Here's the gear list so far:

- Small aluminun whistle on a "bracelet"
- Finger and knuckle band aids, individually wrapped wet wipes, small hand cleaner in an Aloksak bag
- Small shake flashlight
- COGHLANS Poncho For Kids
- Emergency blanket (to be upgraded to the AMK Heatsheet after the girls destroy the mylar one practicing with it)
- 12 oz Nalgene bottle
- Snacks
- Small waist pack
- I am not quite comfortable putting MP-1 tablets or a small SAK in there yet

The moms, the girls and I will meet to discuss any additons/subtractions to the list as well as the education topics and fun activities.

So far that list has:

- Safety
- Signalling and getting help
- Crafts
- Using a knife safely & firecraft (this one is me. I doubt the moms would go for this)
- Outdoor cooking
- Using a compass & navigation games
- Practicing carrying their stuff

We all go hiking on a regular basis anyway, so this would go hand in hand with it.

I present this to you to get your feedback and suggestions. Thanks in advance.

By the way, let me know if you have insights on where to buy good gear at a cheap price.

What is 4H group? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You are in Hawaii, so shipping from mainland will not be an issue unless you are ordering heavy stuff (water, food).
Check my ad in the Marketplace forum. Many of the items you listed are there with prices. Contact me off list if you need anything else. COGHLANS Poncho For Kids individually wrapped wet wipes Emergency blanket AMK Heatsheet

Hawaii has 4H?? I learn something new everyday!

That list looks good to me. Consider adding a laminated family picture...in case the child gets lost. Maybe she won't feel so lonely then. A small comfort item might be good too, although with the space, it would have to be very small.

For my five year old, firecraft involved my child watching what I'm doing, me explaining what I'm doing, "when you build a fire, everything has to be VERY dry" and a lot of reminders that "you never play with fire, you have to respect it, and if you're smart, it can be a very good thing." My wife has the same reservations...she doesn't want our children anywhere near fire. I think they need to start learning early. My five year old is very interested in learning how to use a knife too. Cutting the mini loaves of bread at some restaurants seems to be of particular interest. Again, my wife objects, but I figure the pseudo-serrated knives these restaurants have can't do much damage, and again it can be a teachable momemt, if well supervised. And again, a lot of talk about, "Never do this unless Mom and Dad are here to help you." Even if kids can recite these safety rules, it is good to keep repeating them so they get the constant reinforcement...even if they roll their eyes and say, "I know, I know" in their best teenage attitude voice!

Maybe with a lexan knife they could practice safe cutting practice with big marshmallows. I haven't actually tried this myself, but I figured those materials were more readily available than mini loaves of bread and steak house serrated knives! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that the reason so many kids play with fire and knives (and guns for that matter) is that they are fascinated by them (as they are with many things) and yet so many parents want to keep these things from them. If we as parents demystify these very engaging things, and teach them safe ways to use these things, then if they encounter them when we aren't around, they will be less likely to get into trouble with them. Of course that doesn't mean that I'm going to take my children out to get cranked up on meth, go to a bar to get drunk and find someone for them to have sex with...
oh...I'm not sure I'm ready for the teenage years! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hope this rambling contains some bits of help.

Are there other dads involved?

I would suggest adding s cylume lightstick for each child. They are nice comfort item for small child on a dark night and have some value as a signaling device. Plus they're fun and cheap.

Another option is to change from a waistpack to a brightly colored vest with everything in the pockets. The kids will be more visible and you'll know that they have their gear. The one problem with that is that I don't know of any commercial source for one. Maybe a child size hunting or fishing vest would work.

I thought I saw that on your site: those previews of ''prepared to survive''.

Isn't a licht-stick the same as a shake-flashlight??

a light stick is a chemical light. It's made of 2 tubes in each other. When you brake them, the contents of the tubes mix and generate light. They give light for long periodes, but are a single use items only. They can not be stored very long and are in general not very reliable.

A shake light is a LED flashlight that uses the shaking movement to creat electicity.

Thanks PC2K.

With #1 son being over 7-1/2 years old, I’ve started teaching my kids some skills this summer.

For firecraft, I put down the tinder and laid the first few twigs to show them how its done, and they took turns adding the rest of the kindling to build the “teepee”. This is easy and fun for kids to do and it teaches the basis of a good fire. The oldest lit the tinder but after that I did all the adding of wood. Everyone roasted marshmallows which is always a hit.

By the time the fire had died down to coals, the sun has set and it was getting chilly. When they started to complain I handed out warm rocks from around the fire. We tried boiling some water with stones and I had one pop rather spectacularly even though it came from a dry area.

Now here’s my question – AM I NUTS for getting them their own pocket knives? They are 2” decent quality lock blades . I keep them put away and only let them have them when they are outside in the yard under my direct supervision. They can keep them in their pockets while the run around and play but the rule is that they must sit down away from the others if they want to take them out and open them to whittle. And no monkey business.

What scares me is that they are razor sharp out of the box and can probably slice right to the bone of my fingers, never mind their little ones. I’m tempted to take my stone and knock the edge down a little bit. Minor injuries are expected and unavoidable with boys, but we like to avoid stitches or surgical re-attachments as they involve a lot of paperwork.

Your wife might think you have lost your mind but as with everything that kids find fascinating, knives and fire being high up on the list, teach them early, teach them right. I was eight when I recieved my first pocket knife and the lessons to go along with it. Definately do this with your kids, great memory for you and for the boys when they have their own kids. As far as knocking down the edge a bit, don't. I can tell you from experience that a slightly dull knife will certainly do more damage than the sharp knife. Clean slices heal faster and neater than jagged tears and rips in the skin.

It is on our website. Gretchen came up with the idea some years ago when her kids were young. She made a bright orange vest and put a small knife, some matches and tender,an energy bar, a lightstick, a whistle and a cut down all-weather blanket in it. She emphasizes that she taught her children safe knife and fire paractices early on.
The kids had to wear the vest anytime they were away from the camp site.
A Cylume lightstick, also known as a chemstick, cost about two dollars each and provide light for 8-12 hours. Simply remove the foil wrapper, crack the bend the stick in the middle and shake. They're a good back-up to a flashlight.

If buying them outside of a box, shake them to make sure they haven't been snapped by some kid having some fun in the aisle of the store. I've been burned buying "used" glowsticks that were still in the foil. But if you listen you can hear the inner vial rattling usually.

Thanks for the advice on checking for used glow sticks. I would not have thought of that.

IMO if it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Add a roll of survey tape to the list for ea. pack.
Then instruct ea. user if lost or hurt to tie one end of the tape to a tree/branch/rock/object then string out the entire roll of tape in a straight line accross a terrain feature then sit down and wait. Many times searchers will walk very close to someone without seeing them because the victim was asleep/ scared/ or hurt . The tape works 24/7 and someone
will bump into 150ft. of tape at some point if they are lookiing anywhere near your area. If you use silver mylar garden tape they might even be able to see it flashing from the air.

What I am suggesting by saying string it out accross a terrain feature is to lay the tape at right angles to any natrual direction of travel. I.E. accross a trail or start at waters edge and string the tape directly away from the shore line. Do not parallel a trail or water flow. <><

redflare,

you can find info on 4h here: http://www.4husa.org/

Aloha Ors,

The family picture is a great idea! I find that I learn something new every day too, whether I want to or not.

My girls, 2 & 5, have already been initiated into using a knife (not a sharp one) and making fire.

They help in cutting vegetables which usually doen't require a knife to be too sharp, so we let them use a stiff butterknife with little not too sharp serations. And we talk about knife safety.

My five year old has been watching me make fire for about two years and the two year old about one. The first thing they were taught was not to start a fire without the means to put it out at hand. Then they watch and learn and help me with the tnder bundle.

I hope the other dads will get involved. A couple of the other dads go hiking with us and some of them are not real involved at all, which is a shame.

Lifeview,

I picked the LED shakelights because they won't run out of juice so long as the child can shake it. Plus the shaking gives them something to do to occupy their minds. And they are pretty darn bright.

We do use orange mesh reflective vests when we go for night time walks, but the need to be tied to fit a kid properly. For hiking, I thought a small unencumbering bag would more appropriate because it is HOT in Hawaii and the trails get extra hot and humid.

Aloha thseng,

I already bought a pocket knife for my five year old, but my better judgement says not to give it to her, so I haven't as it is razor shapr. I am content to let her and her sister practice with the butter knives for now.

"...as with everything that kids find fascinating, knives and fire being high up on the list, teach them early, teach them right."

That is so true that it's pathetic that so many parents don't understand that concept. They have a knee-jerk reaction to things that are "dangerous": Keep them safe. Don't let them touch matches, lighters, knives, climb trees. But they'll sure put them in a mini quad and turn them loose!

I used to work with a woman whose husband was determined that their son would know how to shoot and learn gun safety and care. Three days a week, they would go down the road to the local shooting club and burn some powder. It didn't take long before the boy lost interest: "Aw, do I HAVE to go shooting? I want to ride my bike over to the park with Dave... "

Sue

Hi,

What is the purpose of the gear? Constant carry when hiking / camping? EDC? Gear for use when the grown-ups go missing? Make them carry regular stuff so you don't have to?
Anyway, here are some of my thoughts for additional gear:

• an id card of sorts with name, address, phone, parents names, etc. You could put the info on the back of the laminated family photo. For most grownups the equivalent would be a driver's license.
• a colorful bandana
• a plastic ziplock type bag
• let the girls personalize / decorate the waist pack some way to make it easy for them to identify their own, as long as their names are not clearly visible on the outside.

Thoughts for activities:

• swimming?
• storytelling / making up stories together
• singing songs
• plant / animal identification
• map reading (various types)
• intro to foods outside their normal cuisine (real foods, not eating bugs here)
• memory and observation building type games

Of course, my experience is with children younger that 5, so this stuff might be a bit simplistic for them.

-Kuovonne

I think that I am going to disagree with the prevailing attitude here regarding "teach them early, teach them right". I say, wait until both child and teacher are ready.

I see little to no benefit in teaching a child something before the child is ready. That path leads to frustration. If the teacher is ready before the child is, can the teacher wait a few months or try teaching something simpler to help prepare the child?

I also see little benefit to teaching a child before the *teacher* or parent is ready. A reluctant teacher is seldom a good one. A reluctant parent will give the child mixed signals. If the child is ready before the teacher, maybe giving the child something else to do or finding a different teacher is in order.

How "early" should early be? What is the "right" way to teach a kid? So much depends on the maturity level of the child, her interest in the subject, the teacher's knowledge of the subject, and the teacher's ability to supervise.

BTW, what is a "mini quad"?

So did the husband teach the son right? Did the son learn all about guns before he lost interest? Or was the purpose of the teaching to make the son loose interest?

-Kuovonne

Once again, I find ETS members to be full of it!

Ideas and information, that is. Thank you all for your tips and suggestions. Please keep em coming. Mahalo.

Susan,

We try to let our kids try things (not all things!) for themselves and to learn from experience. We do try hard not to be stupid about it and to let them have their experiences in a supervised and controlled environment. Sometimes kids, and adults too, don't know if they will like or dislike something until they try it.

For example, we took both of our girls to the beach when they were about a month old. The older one liked everything about it, the little one only liked playing in the sand. When they were two months old, we took them to the pool to dunk them underwater. The older one loved it and couldn't get enough and the younger one hated it. When the older one was three, I let her have a taste of soda and she hated it. Her sister will get a taste next year. Scary part is I think she will like it. Obviously, some things will be taboo, but we still talk about it.

Kuovonne,

I had forgotten about the bag decorating part. My wife and daughters have done that before and really enjoyed it, as well as some of the other moms and keikis. So we might just have to incorporate that in. I did remember the bandanas. I was thinking of plain orange ones like the ones my daughters have and having them brightly deocrate them too. ID card on the back of a family picture, check. And the aloksak is like a zip lock bag on steriods.

Mini-quads are to ATVs what minibikes are to dirtbikes. They are overpowered, underweight, top heavy, and just flat out scary. They are fine if properly supervised, but the can't do what a full sized ATV can in terms of climbing or handling, and if the parent or expedition head isn't watching, helmet or not, there is going to be sorrow.

They'd be fine if the lowered the power and upped the weight at or below the axels, but until they do, I shudder every time I see one. I'd much rather see a kid on a minibike- those won't roll over you, just tip over, if you dump them on a hill, and they don't have the power.

As for teaching someone to shoot, if you are doing it to convice them not to shoot, you're doing it wrong, and for wrong reasons. As for teaching early, I would say you can't be too early with the safety lesson (stop, don't touch, get an adult), but you can weight to teach them to shoot. Me, I can't imagine choosing to ride a bike than be on the range, that's just abnormal to me, but to each thier own.

The people in this forum might be more observant of their kids than the norm. But from what I've seen, most parents seem to be WAAAAY behind their kids, if they pay any attention to them at all. They don't see what they don't want to see. And what they don't want to see is their kids' interest in items that can be dangerous. There are lots of parents who haven't even noticed that their kids can't READ by the time they're 12 -- how observant is THAT? <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

The majority of parents just say "Don't", and blithely go on their way, assuming that the kid is actually going to obey. These are the same kids who stick beans up their nose after being told not to do it, get steak knives out of the drawer after being told not to do it, and investigate their friends' parents' guns because they're not locked up after being told not to do it.

I really do believe that most parents' common sense (if they ever had any) goes right down the toilet at conception.

The guy who took his son shooting (son was about 8) did so because he himself was interested in shooting, he had multiple guns in the house, and if his son got his hands on a gun ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, he wanted him to know how to handle it.

It's the "anywhere, anytime" part that tends to be the (literal) killer. Dumb parents think 1) their kids will do as they're told (yeah, sure!), and 2) they will always be around when the kid puts himself into danger. Both are incredible arrogant, unrealistic and stupid thinking. Come on! These are the same kids who slam the door all summer, leave the door open all winter, play with the hose beside the open window of the new car, and remember parental commands for as much as one-fifth of a second.

A hundred years ago, kids grew up with knives, guns, shearing and crushing equipment and livestock, and knew how to handle all of them. Now, people want to protect their kids from everything, as if they ignore the dangers, they will go away. Instead of preparing them to deal with problems in the future, they restrain them from as much as they can, and when the kid breaks loose or turns 18, they have no conception of how to deal with anything. All their learning has been from what they've seen on TV and in movies, and we all know how realistic THAT is. (Everyone knows that a movie bullet that misses its target downtown evaporates, right?)

These are the kids who don't even know how to tell if a gun is loaded! They will pull a trigger just to pull a trigger, and it doesn't even pass through their mind that their friend is standing in front of them. They don't know that a clip can be removed from an automatic and still have a bullet ready to go. They don't know that many people who own revolvers leave the hammer resting on an empty cylinder. If the gun doesn't fire, they look down the barrel and pull the trigger again to see what's wrong.

I live in the stupid capital of America, and I see it all the time.

Sue

Bravo! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Or if you can pry Gretchen's secrets for vest making from her... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

While I think the surveyor's tape sounds like a good idea, remember the children in question are quite young. Tying surveyor's tape is a complicated task for little fingers and may not be possible. An alternate method of securing the tape would be needed most likely...a kid accessible one.

I disagree.
One of the first tasks a child learns is how to tie a knot, i.e. I can tie my shoes. A child that is to young to tie there own shoes will likely not be old enough to remember much of anything if or when they get lost. At that age they should never be alone in the outdoors or have an opportunity to stray from camp
It is aslo likely some young ones will wander off and likely they will not have a survival kit or know what to do with one either even if they had one.

Okay, I'll agree with you there. It's best to teach a child at least minimum safety lessons early when encountering dangerous items. I was more thinking along the lines that there's little harm in waiting to teaching them how to *use* the items until everyone is ready.

Whether a parent (or someone else) should artifically introduce a kid to a potentially dangerous item in order to teach them a safety lesson is another matter (one that I don't want to get into).

-Kuovonne

Try small non-load bearing carabieners both ends of the tape. That way, all they have to do is clip it into place.
Having young children on these trips is going to give any responsable adult grey hairs at the best of times. I suggest you establish a "sudden death" line for the kids. As in "don't go beyond that point or you might die suddenly and horribly." Just to keep it interesting........

By way of a small tale to illustrate the point - I went to see a friend of mine last winter over in Maidenhead. In order to get to her flat, I have to cross a local park. I had a bag on my back with a few EDC items in it. The park ain't lit, so I used my headtorch. Crossed the park, walked through an allyway and into her road. Took the head torch off and clipped it to my bag. My friend has a young son called Scott. Age 5. Nosey little sod. Asks a lot of questions. Every second one is "Why?"
It takes him a whole 0.01 seconds to spot my head torch.
Bear in mind that parks at night are dangerious places for adults let alone kids.
The subsequent conversation went some thing like this:
Scott: "Whats that?"
Me: "A head torch. I wear it on my head so that I can see in the dark"
Scott: "Why?"
Me " Because I have to cross the park and there are Monsters in the park."
Scott "Monsters?"
Me: "Yes"
Scott "Why?"
Me: " So that the monsters can see me coming."
( At this point, his mum is making your digging yourself in deeper... gestures behind him.)
Scott: "Why?"
Me: " So that the monsters can get out of my way."
Scott: "Why?"
Me: "Because I will happen to them if they don't!"
Scott: "Oh...."

The point I was making to young Scott is that the park is a no go zone.

To all,

What exactly is the child expected to do with the surveyor's tape?

The expectation is that the children (and most adults) would stay put and make themselves as findable as possible. It seems that big (33 gallon) bright orange plastic bags waving in the breeze would be much more noticable than a small strip of bright plastic hanging from something.

I know Cody Lundin recommends them, and I can see the utility of the survey strips if an adult is traveling (more typically a survival no-no though) as they would identify the path of travel, and can be used to write notes to searchers (date/direction of travel/plan).

My five year old can tie her own shoe laces and come up with some pretty interesting knots, but I think it might be safer for her to stay put and blow her whistle, if she ever got separated from the group than to string up the marking tape. I carry marking tape and talk about how to mark the trail as we go.

One thing Kuovonne has drilled into me is that I'm not allowed to just say "Don't" to DD. I have to give an explanation to DD as to why I don't want her doing a particular thing, then I have to have DD explain back to me why doing/touching/licking said thing is bad. It's time consuming but the overall results have been wonderful.


Um, actually a lot of kids were crushed, burned, bitten or killed back then. My parents, aunts, and uncles are all in there 70's and grew up on farms. You'd have to add a several of them together to get a full two-hands worth of fingers and they are the ones that lived. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

Oh, I'd say the time is when both agree they are ready, or a few days after the belt's been applied.

Only two ways to get the belt in my family- playing with fire, and with firearms.

Way to go, now he's going to be scared of the park forever.

Of course, I'm no better. I consider "enter sandman" a lullaby, and tell kids *don't worry about the things that go bump in the night, worry about the ones that aren't clumsy and can see in the dark- those ones will get you before you know they are there." <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Five year olds?

Whistle
Bright Poncho
Water
Snack
cheapie LED flashlight....they will lose it!
If lost, teach them to hug a tree, cover up with poncho if needed and blow the whistle.

Don't try to teach them everything at once.

As far as knives, every kid is different. I got all my kids Victorinox MY FIRST SAK PLUS. They have a combo tool (bottle/can opener/flat screwdriver) a blade with a rounded tip and a saw. My kids love the saw. The first time out, after the safety briefing <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> was cutting walking sticks and stripping the bark off of them. Good lesson in both saw and blade use.

I would challenge you to tie 30 feet of surveyor's tape exactly the same way you would tie your shoes.

Young children don't necessarily adapt concepts the way adults do. This has nothing to do with how smart they are, or how well they've been taught. It is simply a developmental fact. The human brain takes time to develop and evolve. That's not an opinion...it is a fact.

Presenting a young child with a flat surface to tie (tape) when they have learned to tie a shoelace knot (that is not useful for tying long tape around objects anyway) with a small, most likely round shoelace, especially when the child is under stress from being lost, chances are the thought of even trying to use that shoelace knot to tie surveyor's tape around a tree branch, assuming someone three and a half feet tall could reach a tree branch that would make the tape visible, would not occur to the child. I'm not saying that kids aren't smart, I'm just saying that biology determines that certain types of brain functions...reasoning, logic, concrete operational, formal operational...these things take time to develop.

You can disagree all you want...diversity in opinions makes things interesting.

For me, I wouldn't base my child's visibility and recovery chances on shoe tying ability.

Maybe that's just me.

I guess what I am saying is that if your child can't tie a knot or be taught to tie a knot then they fall into the 100% supervision catagory. It's putting the tape in a straight line that really counts most kids can at least do that.
<><

When I take my son (5 years old) camping I always attach a bear bell to him so that I can hear him and easily locate him. He also carries a Fox40 whistle around his neck, which he knows to use whenever he is scared, lost, or can't see us. He wears bight clothes to enhance his visibility. At dusk I give him two glow sticks one I attach to him, the other so he can play with it. I do not think my son in an emergancy (lost, hurt, whatever) would have the mind to tie 150' of tape on a trail.

5 year olds might seem like little people but they do not have the ability to think problems thought. Untill a child is around 8 they should be supervised 100% when outside of there comfort area.

Agree 100%

He's going to be scared of the park untill he's big enough ( his father is 6' 4" & his mum's 5' 7"), and mean enough, to make Monsters run away. Two legged, four legged or any other legged.

My family and a friends family usualy go camping together. Their daughter is 7 and wanted to whittle with my wife and I, so we bought her this mora knife for her 8th birthday:

*** #73-164; This one is listed as a "Woodcarving knife for Children. It comes with a carbon steel blade not quite 3" long, 5/8" wide, and .080" thick. There is a stamped metal guard to keep the child's fingers off the blade, and the 3 1/2" wood handle is sized for smaller hands. ***

Her father had to keep the knife on his belt until we were all sure she could be responsible.

And on the subject of guns my 5 year old helps me clean the rifles when I get home. When he turns 7 or 8 he will get a BB rifle and he can then go out with me. At about 10 I will then let him shot a 22, that is if he does not shot anyone with the BB rifle. Also the BB rifle will be in the gun safe so my son will know guns are not toys.

I let my son cut bread at the dinner table as long as I have a hand on the knife. My wife was not happy at first, but she sees that my son now has respect for knives. I believe in small steps when introducing a child to dangerous things.