My wife has expressed an interest in learning to use a weapon for self/home defense and my suggestion was to have her train on a handgun. ( I minimally train and qualify on one for work purposes, but am not an expert) . A law-enforcement friend has suggested that a shotgun might be more appropriate for the purpose and believes that a standard (and locally available) 8 hour course would provide adequate training. Neither of us do any shooting for sport or hunting purposes. I don't know anything about shotguns or their advantages and disadvantages, and am frankly skeptical that one 8 hour course would be enough for someone to be properly trained. Any opinions or direction to a source of information would be greatly appreciated. <br><br>Thanks much.....Robb

IMO: No-brainer - shotgun. Gauge matters a little - 12 prefered; 20 OK. If a 12, reduced-recoil loads or light loads might be a good idea. If a 20, there are not reduced recoil loads readily available, so lighter payload/velocity loads like target or upland game loads best bet. (A heavy 20 load in a lightweight gun kicks harder than an average 12, IMO) Forget .410; likewise, 28 gauge is wimpy for that purpose. 16 would be OK but ammo selection is limited. A 20 gauge on a 12 gauge frame or action would be a good compromise between recoil and effectiveness - altho it won't matter in a real situation, and my petite wife never has had any problem with 12 gauges.<br><br>GENERALLY speaking, no need for buckshot inside the house. I would, however, advise against very small birdshot. Nothing smaller than # 5 - say something in the # 4 to # 2 range (I'm talking lead, not steel). OTOH, buckshot is good.<br><br>Action? Break-open double barrel is simple; lacks rapid third and beyond shots for all but the most skilled Can be expensive. Pumps are universal and make an unmistakable bone-chilling sound when the action is cycled to chamber a round. Autos are great for recoil reduction when shooting a lot of claybirds, but add a little to the "complication equation" for a novice. I'd go with a reliable pump.<br><br>But... an 8 hour course followed by a re-familiarization once in a while (you pick - quarterly, semi-annual, annual - depends on retention of the trainee) - that is enough for the "bang" part of this. The HARD part is teaching/learning when to shoot and when to not - and how to handle those situations. That is much harder.<br><br>I'm not sure I'd encourage you to have one in the house if the primary "user" doesn't shoot at least a few times a year, and even then... however, it's truly your call. My household exercises its rights, but there is a lot of life-long education and hands on (and on-going dialog - a lengthy and difficult topic).<br><br>I dunno if that helps - if you want to discuss further, let's move to the Campfire forum ,eh?<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Rob,<br><br>Being a competition trap shooter and a competion handgun shooter, I would say a shotgun is a more viable choice for home/self defense. Sure, it's bigger, and has a significant amount of recoil...but handguns require more training, and wield less "stopping power," than a shotgun. Not to mention the "fright factor" of a shotgun being pointed directly at you! I personally feel that handguns are more dangerous to yourself and those around you than a long gun. Although, with the proper training and experience...the risk can be greatly reduced.<br><br>Regarding the 8 hour course. I would say the the course is plenty of time to be "trained" with the FAMILIARITY of a shotgun. As long as they teach you the proper loading/unloading, safety, shooting, and cleaning procedures, it will be fine. However, you should consider making a trip to your local trap/skeet range every so often to brush up on the shooting. Also, cleaning your shotgun on a regular basis will ensure that it is ready for you when you need it. Be sure to keep it out of children's reach, and to get a cord lock for it. (Mossberg may still be giving these out for free.)<br><br>For a good self defense/home defense shotgun. I would recommend the less expensive, but very good, Remington 870 express OR the Mossberg 500. 12 guage would be best for your needs. Stay away from the .410 and other small guage guns the store clerk may try to offer you. Look for an 18-20" barrel, 5-8 shot capacity, and you may even want to think about adding front and rear pistol grips. Also, as far as shells, I would consider target loads, light loads or reduced recoil loads.<br><br>I hope this helps, if you need more info or have any questions, feel free to e-mail me.<br><br>John McIntire

Robb,<br><br>God help me, but I have to respectfully disagree with the opinions expressed thus far.<br><br>IMHO, a home defense gun should be a handgun. The shotgun has a lot going for it in terms of power and intimidation, but the advantages of the handgun outweigh those IMO. Here are some of them, in no particular order:<br><br>1. Can be used one handed. Useful when another hand is needed to : dial 911, usher kids into "safe room" (more on that later), flip light switches, activate alarms, lock doors, operate a flashlight, etc....<br><br>2. Handguns appropriate for both women AND home defense are easier (and cheaper) to find than shotguns meeting the same criteria. Sorry if that seems sexist.<br><br>3. Handguns are smaller and lighter than shotguns. This is an important consideration when the weapon may be clutched tightly in hands until police arrive. The smaller factor is also important when investigating that noise which may or may not be an intruder, and turns out to be an intoxicated neighbor trying to get into "his" house. Don't laugh, this has happened to me twice --bad neighbor I suppose-- but my handgun was kept behind my back, neighbor was embarrassed, but didn't have to change his shorts. <br><br>4. Handguns are more retention friendly, particularly in certain models. A shotgun sticks way out, giving the person attempting to grab it a long lever. A handgun is more difficult to grab (smaller target), and certain models have features, which when employed, can keep the weapon from being used on it's owner in the event that it does get taken away . <br><br>5. While it is true that shotguns have a shorter learning curve than handguns, the time required to learn to safely use a handgun at across the room distances isn't that great. I was able to teach my wife the basics over a weekend. She was able to hit a torso sized target at ten feet with the whole magazine of her handgun after one weekend.<br><br>Please keep in mind that a handgun (or any gun for that matter) in the home is not an answer in and of itself, it may, in fact, be a liability in some circumstances. Like most of the things that we hope will never happen to us, prevention is the key. Adequate home security measures are a must. Locks, lighting, alarms, etc...should all be taken care of before a handgun is considered. Plans (similar to fire drills) should be made covering individual responsibilities i.e: Dad grabs gun and kids and gets then to saferoom, Mom calls police, etc... This should also allow for people missing i.e: Dad is away, Mom grabs gun and cell phone and runs to kid's room, speed dials police and assumes "mama bear" role).<br><br>The safe room concept has proven itself again and again. This simply a room where the family has decided to hole up and wait for the cavalry (or to make a last stand) This room is usually the master bedroom, but your circumstances may alter that. In my case, it is the children's room, my house layout leaves me no choice. In the event that I am alerted of a home invasion, I grab gun, cell phone and wife and scurry to kid's room. Wife then calls police, and stays on the line with them, keeping them up to date. I announce to everyone in earshot that I am aware of the intruder, have a gun, have called the police, and that any attempt to enter the room with the cartoon characters on the door will result in shots fired. Staying on the line with the police prevents them from getting lost, thinking that the emergency is over, or shooting me by mistake.<br><br><br>Uh-oh, storm moving in...more later.<br><br>Take care,<br>Andy <br>

Robb,<br><br>Just a few more things to consider...<br><br>Chris had an excellent point about being quiet. The guns are there to prevent home intrusion from becoming a worst case scenario, not a "selling point" to thieves. <br><br>Speaking of worst case scenarios, if you have children in the house, for God's sake make sure that either the children are gunproof, or the guns are childproof. My 11 year old is gun-proof, but my guns are child-proofed because of my 3 year old. This presents the problem of ready access to the guns, but there are ways around that.<br><br>Everything you need to know about this subject of home defense can be learned from the writings of one man. His name is Massad Ayoob. He has made a career of helping people help themselves in this arena. Check your library, favorite bookseller or his website (LFI.org IIRC). For the record, I have no financial stake in his business.<br><br>Tom made a good point as well, the decision is yours, ultimately. Chose what works best for you and your situation. I suspect that given your occupation, you may have a sharper need for home defense weapons than the majority of us.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

hmmmm.... *leans back, fingers steepled meditatively*<br><br>Pistols have the strong points that Ade mentioned. However, they are harder to learn how to use, and the skills deteriorate faster than longarm skills do. There is also the issue of registration/liscencing/et al in many locations. Those are less relivent, though.<br><br>Pistols seem to many to kick harder, becuase all their recoil is on the wrist(s). I for defensive handgun, that isn't going to be concealed, it is hard to beat a medium to large frame .38 (or .357 Mag, which can be loaded with .38s) with 3"-5" barrel with good sights- not much recoil, mechanically simple, only two controls to learn, innexpensive and it has decent stopping power with good hollowpoints. Just remember NOT to cock it- if you can, get the spur bobbed off if you think this might be an issue. With a double action revolver, the only time you need to cock it is for accuracy at range, and if urban areas you won't need it. (if you are underfire, take cover and let them come to you, don't try to take them outside of your property line/perimiter and get a reckless endangerment and/or attempted homicide charge out this.) <br><br>The "downside" is that if you can grab the cylinder, a revolver isn't going to go bang, but if they get that close and you haven't fired, you weren't going to in the first place. <br><br>For people who aren't going to be practicing a lot, I say leave autoloaders out of the picture. To many pieces, to many controls. And you get more kick- even a .22 has some jump from the slide moving. They are also more expensive. If you are going to be carrying it concealed, then you might want to get teh extra practice- they are easier to hide.<br><br>Ade mentioned "grabability" of shotguns. It might be easier with a shotgun, but it is another non-issue. If you are carrying it at a high ready or port arms, you are screwed, and there is no two ways about it. But if you are holding it like that, well, lucky you, you deserve that Darwin Award you just got. Hold it to your shoulder, muzzle DOWN in a low ready. Just slide your finger int the gaurd and pull if they try to grab. If the hostile is front of you, it just recieved a load of shot to it's legs/groin/belly and is out of the fight. <br><br>For people who won't be shooting a lot, I'm not fond of pump action shotguns. Spend the extra and get an autoloader- the one handed thing that Ade (sorry dude, nothing personal) was talking about goes out the window if they are so close you can't drop the phone and grasp the forearm. It is also easier to operate under stress (long list of dead or wounded cops who short stroked a pump action, and an infinantly long list of humilated hunters and trap shooters). 12ga or 20ga, I'm rather impartial between them, so long as the two are not mixed in the same house. (20ga is close enough in size to 12ga that you can't feel the difference, or see if it if you don't look close, but it will slide down the barrel. You'll get a failure to fire, rack the bolt, get a 12ga in the chamber, and blow the weapon apart when you pull the trigger.)<br><br> I use #4 buck with slugs strapped to the stock, but my house is pretty big and I have 40+ acres of front yard. For suburbanites with driveways, large birdshot (#2 or bigger, in lead not steel) is better. It will still blow thorugh an interior wall, but it won't get outside of your home. Buckshot is too big, and shot fine enough to not go through drywall is too small to be effective. Just remeber that this IS NOT skeet shooting- you need to AIM not just point in close quarters.<br><br>My personal recommendation is a light, pistol caliber carbine. Dont' get an "assault weapon" (I'll explain why later) like a AR-15 in 9mm or a recreated Tommy gun, but go with something with a conventional style stock. Sythetic is OK, wood is better. I really liked the old Marlin Camp Carbines, and if you can find one used in good shape, it's a great choice. Ruger has a similiar series out now, I'd go with the .40 or .45 caliber version becuase it hits better and is less penetrative of building materials than 9mm. As to why, it's simple. Autoloading makes it easy to use mechanically, while using a longarm is easier than a pistol. Detachable box magazines make securing and rapid loading easier. <br><br>With either long arm, I like to add a light. Don't go with a SWAT-type mount. I like 2-3D cell Maglight and some ducktape. Looks like crap, but it works, and costs less than the batteries of those wonderlights. I also like a red-dot sight, preferably a tube-type model WITHOUT magnification, as they are easier to use up close and in a hurry. <br><br>For shotguns, if you can stretch the tube, that great, but don't worry too much if you can't get an extended mag. Ditto stock-mounted ammo carriers. Unless you [censored] off an entire street gang or mob family, you most likely won't need more than one or two shots anyway. <br><br>Final words:<br><br>IF you ever need to use this, remember range. If the hostile can touch the barrel with a single long step, it is too close. If it can get inside that 10' ring before you ID and challange it, your danger just jumpped a few thousand percent. Put the hostile down at that point, dont' risk loosing control of your weapon. If it turns into a wrestilng match for a loaded weapon, the last thing you will see or hear before you die is your family having their heads blown off, unless you keep control. Which means only your hands on that weapon.<br><br>The other piont is this. If you pull that trigger, you are going into a court room. Not maybe, you ARE! Maybe criminal, but certainly civil court. "Evil" looking guns (whatever the hell that is- just ask any media weenie, they can tell you) with all kinds of nasty looking widgets are a bad thing at that point. Blued steel, wood and a duct-tapped maglight improves your ability to get out of that court room without having to pay your hostile every cent you will ever make becuase it was robbing you to pay for it's addictions. Or worse, it's next of kin sueing you for loss of companionship/support/whatever. The Super-slayomatic 9000 with the double pistol grips, laser sight, illuminator and pre-ban, ultra high-cap mag might look cool on the range, but in the court room, it will get you no friends on the jury of 12 morons, media-trained and truely braindead. (I own a lot "black guns", but they stay secured if something goes bump in the night.)<br><br>And use regular ammo. No reloads from a buddy. And nothing exotic, like thumbtacks (Doc Holliday's load of choice) or flechette. Either of those will make you open to a lawyer trying to get his cut of your future earnings by showing the affore mentioned morons you were some deranged gunfreak psycho killer who set out to purposefully and intentially main or murder his client. Not even handloaded bouncyballs (which make a nasty slightly-less-than-leathal load, btw, for anyone who doesn't follow Uncle Raven's sage advice).<br><br>

i think you should choice the type of gun withs is most suited for your home. if you life in a small apartment a pistol would be a beter choice because its short. a shotgun would be to long in narow apartments, but if you life in a BIG house/villa with lots of big rooms and wide hallways a shotgun would be beter choice because it's more effective both psychological ( for both you and the intruder ) and pysical ( stoping power )and you got enough space to move around with a shotgun.<br>but still prevention is the best choice ! because blowing somebody's brains out, doesnt do any good for you either !

The clack,clack of a pump being charged is indeed a bone chilling sound especially if you don't know where its comming from.<br><br>A mag light taped or otherwise mounted to the barrel is like saying." Here I am. Shoot over here. See the light? that's me!" If you are going to mount a light to the barred have a thumb activated switch that can be activated with your finger on the trigger and thumb on the receiver or ready position.<br><br>A 410 with a 20 inch barrel alternately loaded with slugs and number 3 shot is a very effective defensive weapon.<br><br>The Remington 870 Police Special is the best home defense weapon in the world.<br><br>When the adrenelin is flowing into your system by the gallon a handgun may not be the best defensive weapon. Most home invaders are already on high alert.<br><br>A hard room is best defense. <br><br>Always check a room from as close to the floor as you can get for your first look in. Gradually work your way up the door jamb as required.<br><br>Even a 22 cal pistol pellet gun is better then nothing. 3-4 hits to exposed skin with on of those can hurt. Or as my mom use to say" That thing is going to take out an eye."<br><br>This is just my opinion and I apoligize if I have offended anyone. I agree with a lot of the info in this particularly interesting thread and I disagree with some of it.<br><br>Mariner<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

I teach and recomend the NRA Basic Pistol and/or Personal Protection courses. They run (the way we teach them) about 9 ot 10 hours. We (BAYPROFS.org) have altered the courses slightly such that Basic Pistol is a prerequesit for Personal Protection (the NRA versions are stand alone and overlap somewhat). By doing them as a series, we can go into more depth in the PP course. I would recomend that you and your wife take both coures (even in standard NRA format). If you can only take one, take the NRA Personal Protection course.<br><br>There has been some good advice given in this forum, but you need to take the instruction there really *is* 8 to 10 hours of information that is persented. If you do find yourself in "The Gravest Exterme," being able to point to having taken a nationally sanctioned course shows that you are not just some gun nut.<br><br> larry<br>

What ever your choice of weapon have the presence of mind to remember what is BEHIND your target. Every piece of shot doesn’t hit the target. So if you hammer a hostile enemy standing in front of your children’s bedroom wall with 00 Buck you are endangering those in the next room as well. Many handgun rounds will go through a target and the wall behind it. And you may not hit your target! Choose the lightest round you are comfortable with.<br><br>The bottom line is: Know your target and where it is in relation to others. <br><br>PS. I hope this does not cause hesitation to shoot if needed (I know, sounds contradictory)<br>

Boy, a ton of opinions and ideas, most of them really good. <br><br>But the one thing that you must do before you purchase any weapon for self defense or take any classes, is decide if you and your wife (and any family members who expect to use the weapon for self defense) will actually be able to use the thing if the time comes. Most call it mind set. If you are not absolutely sure that you will be able to take a life (never try to shoot to wound, shoot to stop, which will very likely produce death), you have no business having the weapon. If you can't use it, the bad guy will take it away from you and may use it on you and your loved ones. You must have already made that decision in your mind, and pull the trigger instantly, you won't have time to think about it. And never bluff, if you have time to say "stop or I'll shoot," shoot if the BD doesn't stop.

Raven,<br><br>Many good points, some that we will have to agree to disagree about, but many good points. You pays your money and you takes your choice.<br><br>Andy

>> have the presence of mind to remember what is BEHIND your target<<<br><br>When I lived in more exciting places than now, this is why the only piece I kept loaded was a shotgun- short-barreled Remington 870 pump with rifle sights.<br><br>The first three rounds were #6 birdshot. Number 6 won't penetrate drywall at distances of more than a few feet, but is purported to still be a pretty reliable stopper across a typical room. There's little concern about patterning at 8 feet.

Robb,<br><br>Many good points have already been made & I will not revisit them. Other considerations include the following:<br><br>Competent handling & use of a shotgun can be learned faster than for a handgun. It is easier to control & point. Accordingly, it is easier to hit with a shotgun. The shotgun can easily have much more stopping power than any handgun. Just look at the relative sizes of the ammunition. The shotgun shell can also dump all of its energy in the target more readily & with more certainty than the handgun cartridge. The pellets from the shotgun shell are much more likely to spend their energy & remain in the target than a single bullet from an adequately powerful handgun.<br><br>On the other hand, any shotgun is much longer & more unwieldy within the confines of a house than a handgun. In tight quarters the awkwardness can be prohibitive. Although any gun can be grabbed by an attacker, the much larger shotgun simply has more that can be grabbed. It is especially susceptible to being grabbed from a side assault: just compare an 18" barrel to a 4" barrel; compare the sizes of the actions & stocks. In close quarters, it will be hard & acquired to point. From a likely positions of safety where your wife might be in an emergency, does she have room to swing freely a shotgun over the entire arc of danger? Use a 4' dowel or augmented yardstick for simulation. <br><br>How will you secure the guns? The handgun can be carried on the person routinely. At other times, it can repose safely in any of the many handgun lock boxes which are designed for quick access. Are adequate security devices for long guns available & appropriate for home use. You will want some variation of a combination lock based. In an emergency, keys may not be readily available. Most of the locking systems for long guns of which I am aware are slower to access. If you have an unsecured gun, will your children, their friends, & amazingly stupid adults be able to access it? One will inevitably find it. I do believe that I have adequately gun-proofed my own children. However, my experience has been that their friends are infinitely inquisitive, ignorant of proper handling of guns, & eventually likely to happen onto things I truly thought well hidden. Adult guests should be regarded as larger, more capable children whose potential mischief is boundless & unpredictable. <br><br>It would be helpful if your wife tried shooting handguns & shotguns to explore her capabilities & interests. Conceivably rental shotguns may be available with expert instruction at a trap & skeet club. Certainly rental handguns are available on such basis. That will provide an opportunity to see how heavy & large a shotgun she can handle properly. You can also gauge her reaction to recoil. <br><br>Against what threat are you seeking to protect? Do the prospects tend more towards a single opportunistic burglar or multiple assassins? The greater the threat, the greater the need for overwhelming firepower. In my own home, the main concern is for a dangerous burglar. My wife is comfortable with revolvers, but not semiautomatic pistols. I'm adaptable. Therefore, most of the time we have a revolver accessible. During our local riot season, & during my occasional acrimonious lawsuits (civil lawyer), defenses are strengthened. Defensive long guns <br>& other handguns are made readily accessible. My wife uses a 20 ga. Rem.1100 gas operated semiautomatic shotgun for bird hunting & skeet shooting. So it is an appropriate choice for her. I have extensive experience in hunting & target shooting with both pump & semiautomatic shotguns. For most of such of uses, I now prefer semiautomatics. OTH, during critical & highly demanding situations, I always switch to a pump. For defensive purposes I have a 12 ga. Rem. 870 pump. The Mossberg 500 pump shotgun is also an excellent choice. <br><br>Recoil is a factor in shooting proficiency & comfort. It is all the more important for a beginner. In general, recoil can be reduced by increasing the weight of the gun, or reducing the power of the ammunition-- i.e., decreasing velocity, or decreasing the total weight of the projectile (ejecta), including bullet/shot, gunpowder, and any wadding. It is usually better for a shooter to begin with a smaller guage shotgun. Here the most practical choices are 12 & 20 gauges. In shotguns, the smaller the number of the gauge, the larger the bore. The 12 ga. has the greatest variety of ammunition available, but will kick noticeably harder in guns of the same weight. In the short range, limited defensive environment of a house, a 20 ga. should be adequate. Pump actions are more reliable & less complicated than semiautomatics. Training (as in skeet shooting which entails rapid pairs of shots) should overcome any tendency not to operate the action fully. <br><br>A new shooter of a shotgun, especially if petite, will probably be happier with the smaller gauge. It tends to come in shotguns about 1-2 pounds lighter than 12 gauge. If recoil is a significant in a lighter shotgun, a gunsmith can add about 1 pound or so to the weight. The additional weight will mitigate the recoil.<br><br> In general, the larger the size of the shot pellets, the greater the penetration. Slugs, buckshot, & large bird shot are much more likely to penetrate walls. The pattern of shot will tend to disperse at the rate of approximately 1" per yard in a full choke shotgun barrel; and at ~ 2" per yard in a cylinder bore (no choke at all). Intermediate chokes perform within those ranges. Consider the ranges involved, & choose your choke. At very close range, the substantially undispersed shot load will tend to operate as if it were a single large jagged projectile in terms of the damage done within the target. Thus, for example, very small shot such as #9 will be deadly at 1 yard, but dispersed & not very injurious at, say, about 60 yards. The power (velocity & energy) of the spherical shot pellet decreases rapidly as the range increases. The size of bird shot also increases as its numerical designation decreases. Carefully consider the nature (e.g., body armor/heavy clothing/light clothing) of the potential target & the likely range as well as the choke in choosing ammunition.<br><br>If a handgun chosen, be sure she can comfortably & properly hold it. Some larger semiautomatic pistols require large hands for proper use. Smaller semiautomatic pistols & those with single column magazines tend to have smaller grips. Smaller & medium frame revolvers have or can be fitted with smaller stocks. These may be more appropriate for someone whose hand is smaller than a medium to large male hand. Choose a popular caliber such as .38 Special, .357 Magnum (which also can shoot .38 Spec. ammo), 9 mm Luger, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. They are popular for a reason. They have a large variety of ammunition available. The ammo is available in loads appropriate for defense. For whatever caliber you choose, you will probably find that the better defensive ammunition will tend to come with light to medium weight bullet (relative to the caliber), and jacketed hollow pointed bullets of high velocity (relative to the caliber). The .38 Spec., however, is probably best loaded with medium to full weight hollow pointed lead semiwadcutters rated +P. The .45 ACP may also be best loaded with medium to full weight bullets. <br><br>Feel free to follow up with any questions you wish via PM or the Forum.<br><br>Good luck,<br><br>John

I have a Mossberg 500 w/ a 20" bbl and 7 shot mag. extension and a Choate top fold stock. The only weapon that I keep loaded anymore. Keep 3 rounds #8 bird in the tube and another 12 rounds assorted in a USGI shot shell carrier. This is the same set-up that our local police dept. swat team used to use.<br>#8 at a close range (living room distance) will still punch a<br> nice hole in something(somebody) and not penetrate walls. Also speciality rounds are available at gun shows or catalogs(sandbag,rubber,Flechett[my favorite], etc,etc).WARNING THEY ARE EXPENSIVE THOUGH, not something you take to the range and pop-off for fun.<br>I put this set-up together for ease of use inside rather than a hunting shotgun or handgun (its 31" long end to end folded). The top fold stock is a compromise(I'm a southpaw and my wife is backwards) rather than a side-fold.A matter of taking out one bolt and slipping the regular stock back on and reinstalling the bolt and 2 screws through the butt plate and its back to factory condition.

A few repeats, but I think worth re-mentioning:<br><br>First of all, most advice that you will hear will be from people who have never shot another human being. <br><br>Evaluate and minimize all of your risks. Is your house well-lit, doors locked, dog, alarm, neighbors... (note that claymors are still illegal). Here, you are trying to prevent the option of last resort: lethal force.<br><br>1) Ask your spouse if she had to, would she take a person's life. If the answer is no, consider martial arts, non-lethal delivery systems... It doesn't matter what you think. A firearm in the hands of the un-motivated is far more dangerous to your family than the 'possibiliy' of an intrusion. <br><br>2) Send her to a pistol course AND a shotgun course. Try a variety of each type. Note that some of the biggest turnoffs to shooting are the noise and the weight of the firearm. Then, try out some practical or combat shooting courses. One or two nights of this kind of fun is relatively inexpensive.<br><br>3) If she is still willing, purchase your weapon and then practice and practice. As we have all heard, 'a well placed .22 is better'. If I could impress one thing in people's minds, it would be that 8 hrs of firearms training is nothing. As those of you who have experience on practical shooting courses know, a little pressure sure can play with a person's mind. <br><br>Yes, it is better to judged by 12 than carried by 6, but the judging part can be a pretty nasty process if you didn't put some thought into your overall safety and protection plan.<br>

Weasel,<br><br>I like flechette rounds myself; if I were trying to kill someone with a shotgun they would be my first choice. They are NOT, however, appropriate for home defense. Excessive penetration is the primary initial concern. Preventing the appearance of being a paranoid pyscho in court during the aftermath of a defensive shooting following very closely behind as a concern.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Ade, if people didn't disagree, then there would be no need for this conversation, no? :)<br><br>This unrealeted to Ade's post, but I want to economize my postings:<br><br>People have mentioned Less-Than-Leathal rounds, like rubber slugs. LTL is great, so long as you have some leathal to back it up. It's used in law enforcement with a partner, or at least a sidearm, loaded with something terminal right behind it. <br><br>Also, most rubber ammo is designed for riot control, not room clearing, and is ment to be bounced of the pavement into the legs and abdomen at ranges of greater than 12 feet. At home defense ranges, directly fired, the only LTL rounds I know of that will still be LTL are bean bags and pepper/stinkballs (paintballs loaded with pepperspray or synthetic skunk oil). <br><br>A bouncy ball, fired directly, at 10 feet, will about equal a musket ball at the same range when it runs into soft tissue.

Thank you all very much for the great thoughts and ideas!<br><br>With great respect to Andy(and I mean that), we have decided on shotguns for the reasons expressed by people here and a few of our own. An important (but not controlling) reason is that the tactical team for one of my local departments is upgrading and is making a very good deal on two 870's. (I am going to join in). We are doing the 8 hour basic, then the tactical team is going to let us participate in their next "stop and shoot" course late this month. <br><br>There were so many great points made here that our decision was actually more difficult but MUCH more informed. Also gave me enough information to ask the tac guys less stupid questions. <br><br>Now that we made the decision, I am really anxious to learn about the different loads (it seems like there are a million of them) and what loads are best for what purposes. Tom talked about that a little--and I would like to learn a lot more. Any more information on that? <br><br>It turned out to be a wonderful idea to sit down and talk about whether you are actually going to be able to use the weapon to "STOP" (read "kill") if it comes to that. That led to a great and lengthy conversation that ended up covering a whole bunch of topics. You learn a lot about someone when you have that conversation(and remember, we have been together for years). I don't think there can be true certainty with that one either. As certain as one might feel, I would submit that only those of you who have been there and done that know for sure. <br><br>Raven is right -- if you fire a weapon in defense, you will be be subject to official legal scrutiny and if you hit someone, the complications increase astronomically. However, in my jurisdiction (and I bet most others), you will be treated fairly by law enforcement. As a prosecutor, I review those cases, and I have never been in a position where I had to file charges against someone defending home and family. I have, however, prosecuted reckless hunters, usually intoxicated, who injured innocent people. Any incident where a police officer fires their weapon in the line of duty must be reviewed by our office. If no injury results, it usually takes less than an hour to certify the incident as a clean shoot. If injury or death results, a much more formal investigation ensues but almost always is properly cleared.<br><br>Thanks again to you all for the great information and help.<br><br>Warmest,<br><br>Robb<br><br><br>

Robb,<br><br>It was never my intention to portray the shotgun as a poor choice. I still feel, however, that in most circumstances, a handgun is a better choice. If my circumstances were different, I would have both. Having said that.....<br><br>The primary consideration when chosing home defense loads in a shotgun is penetration. Factors to consider are: wall construction (will my chosen load penetrate it?), and what is beyond "shooting lanes" (if it will pentrate, what could it then hit----exterior masonry wall--no problem, kid's bedroom/neighbor's house--BAD problem). Larger shot sizes (buckshot) penetrates more than smaller (birdshot).<br><br>Also, recoil; without intending to sound sexist, this will likely be more a problem for your wife, than for you. Some loads recoil more than others. #7 1/2 birdshot doesn't recoil very hard, #00 does. Reduced recoil loads are available in some of the larger shot sizes. <br><br>As far as effectiveness, buckshot is a better stopper. However, at close range it won't make too much difference; the shot from either will be very close to being one solid mass at "in house" ranges. You will have to aim. The "point it in the general direction, and you'll getim with something" is a myth.<br><br>Slugs, and, particularly exotics (flechettes, dragon's breath, door knockers, CS, etc....) have no place in home defense shotguns, IMHO. Slugs are penetration liability, and the exotics are are a legal nightmare.<br><br>My reccomendation: # 4 birdshot. This is a compromise load. More oomph than a lighter birdshot, less penetration that buckshot, and easily managable recoil. It is what I would use.<br><br>Take care, have fun, and stay safe.<br><br>Andy

Hey Andy,<br><br>I knew you weren't adamantly opposed to shotguns, you pointed out the advantages of each. You actually made the decision tough(in a good way), because your argument for handguns was so persuasive. I am VERY glad you aren't a defense lawyer. <br><br>I think an important factor for us that I didn't mention was the learning curve. I am not at ALL suggesting that my wife is slow-lol-but she probably will not want to spend more time than is necessary to be adequately prepared. Generally I think that people who are good at something complicated tend to underestimate how difficult a skill it is to master. I think this is really true of using handguns properly for self defense as opposed to target practice. When you talk about one handed use, and properly clearing a room, you are into some pretty sophisticated tactical stuff that many of us " should not try at home."<br><br>You know, I had never thought of my "storm room" as a "self-defense room as you suggested. That was really interesting and I would like to hear more about how you do that. I never thought to set it up that way.<br><br>I appreciate your advice on proper loads for defense. The physics involved with a shotgun can be tricky. I had a murder case a few years ago where the murder weapon was a shotgun. I was initially confused by the scene because the victim fell forward after being shot, which surprised me. It took our expert a while to explain that to me, and not sure I fully understand it yet. Fortunately, though, the jury had no problem with it. LOL<br><br>Take good care and thanks again for your help.<br><br>Robb

Robb,<br><br>Some target shooting can do a great deal to familiarize both of you with the operation, handling, & pointing, of a shotgun as well as its capabilities. Typical police shotguns have 18-20" barrels with cylinder or improved cylinder chokes. Such configurations are excellent for shooting skeet.<br><br>Try using ammunition appropriate for skeet. It will have #9 shot, which is the smallest shot size readily available. Trap & skeet loads tend to be low powered & light in recoil. That is conducive to learning to shoot well. As I indicated in my earlier post on this subject, lower powered loads--lower in weight of shot charge, lower in velocity, lower in weight of gunpowder--will tend to have less recoil. You will not only shoot more comfortably, but also with more endurance & fun with lower recoiling loads. That will in turn lead to proficiency & confidence in the use of the guns. Good experiences in target shooting will overcome any misconceptions your wife may have re the "kick" of shotgun. Incidentally, have no illusions re the recoil of the higher powered loads (including most magnums & rifled slugs). They do recoil significantly; however the recoil will not be anything an experienced shooter cannot handle (whether he will want to or not, or do so well are different questions). You can get a fairly good idea of the recoil of load in advance by calculating it (see my earler post re Recoil in guns ca 2/28/02).<br><br>Unless your wife, and you for that matter, happen to have the dimensions (e.g., arm & neck length, & neck thickness) of the average man for whom the shotgun is designed, you may need to have the stock altered. If the stock is too long (butt to trigger dimension), have someone skilled in gunsmithing cut off the appropriate length of stock. I have seen a number of Remington shotguns with factory recoil pads which seem designed to rival the wood in hardness. Have a gunsmith fit a good recoil pad such as a Pachmayr Decelerator (tm) to molify the recoil. Adding a slip on recoil pad over whatever is there presently will also lengthen the pull of shotgun stock about 1" That is helpful for us taller people. Remember if you remove the existing recoil pad & replace it with a new pad, you will be maintaining approximately the same length of pull on the stock. If the gun shoots high, a pad can be added to the comb (top of stock where the face touches) to lower the point of impact. If a gun is shooting low, its point of impact can be raised by having a gunsmith reduce the height of the comb.<br><br>Awhile back, I acquired an obsoleted police Rem. 870 12 ga. shotgun. I added a slip on recoil pad to conveniently increase the length of pull by about 1". I also added a Choate extended magazine tube to increase the gun's total capacity to 7 rounds; and a Tac Star Sidesaddle to carry an additional 5 rounds clamped to the left side of the receiver. These last 2 additions significantly change the appearance & image of the gun. I'm not so sure that if a jury had to consider my potential criminal/civil liability after what is euphimistically called a serious social use that the jury would look favorably on the gun. OTOH, if I ever have a situation requiring that shotgun, I will probably be glad to have the extra rounds so readily available. Those changes also changed the gun's balance, & increased weight, thereby decreasing recoil. If you make any such changes, be sure to shoot the gun fully loaded & nearly empty to learn how differently it feels.<br><br>Good luck,<br><br>John

Congratulations. FWIW, I think you made a very good choice. Not saying it's the only very good choice.. but then, I own three 870's myself, so I'm a little partial to them. :-)<br><br>I'm assuming that these will be old enough not to have the new "lawyer-lock" safety that the newest 870's have. That being the case, somewhere down the road you might want to look into an oversize button safety for each. I'm very fond of them myself- it makes it much easier to disengage the safety with your trigger finger- you can do it without shifting grip or "hunting" for it,especially if you've forgotten the saftey and already tried to pull the trigger- but it doesn't seem to make it any easier to disengage by accident. It's my single favorite 870 mod (and there are a lot of them). They're getting harder to find, but I think I have a link somewhere...<br><br>>> As certain as one might feel, I would submit that only those of you who have been there and done that know for sure.<<<br><br>Not even most of those, I'm afraid. How each of us reacts to a crisis varies a great deal depending on the circumstances, degree of preparation or surprise, maybe just the mood you're in when it happens. I'm not sure anyone knows with certainty how they'll handle the next one.<br><br>There has been a lot of very high quality advice on this thread, but there's one small point that hasn't been mentioned, and doesn't get mentioned nearly enough in the subject of home defense with firearms. Because of the lifelong conditioning of movies and television, almost nobody- even those who have practiced at the range with hearing protection- is prepared for the noise of a firearm going off inside a small room with no hearing protection. Often people are so shocked by the sheer magnitude of the sound that they are stunned into inaction- whichever side they are on. Nor are they prepared for being largely deaf for minutes afterwards. <br><br>I don't know of any adequate way to prepare for this without risking damage to your hearing- but you should at least be aware of it. Scenes in the movies where someone lets loose a large firearm in a living room and the conversation continues, or police trade banter after firing a 44 magnum in a concrete stairwell, are dangerous fantasies.

Robb,<br><br><br>First of all, I haven't went back and read my previous posts, but I am pretty sure I never mentioned "clearing a room." I am not qualified to do so, nor am I brave/crazy enough to do so. I would leave that to the braver, qualified, paid to do that people except in an extreme (very extreme) circumstance. I would be far more likely to abandon the house before I did that. Clearing a house, untrained and alone, is akin to volunteering to walk into an ambush. Get your family into one place, hole up, call the cavalry and let the SOB who invaded your home walk into an ambush. You'll live longer that way. I know ABOUT this stuff, I don't KNOW it. I apologize if I unintentionally gave an impression otherwise on that. My knowledge comes from lots of research and hanging out with guys who did this for a living. They let me play sometimes, but I have no real expertise.<br><br>Rather than go into the subject of "safe rooms" and such (it's a fairly lengthy discussion), if you'll send me your snail mail via PM or e-mail, I'll mail you a book and some magazine articles which cover the subject in detail.<br><br>Mr. Baker and Mr. Lost had some good points in other posts, particulary on fitting the shotgun. One addition--fit the shotgun to your wife, assuming that she is smaller than you. It will be much easier for you to "choke up" on a smaller stock than it will be for her to try and stretch to reach the controls.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy <br><br>