Someone mentioned that should I need to evacuate my home, I would be going to a shelter or something...is this viable and what are shelters like? I have never been in one. I have no family or CLOSE friends in the area. I have a bunch of friends and acquaintences...they may provide shelter but most are severly underprepared. Your opinions? I live in an suburban area (Irvine, California).

public shelters:<br><br>picture your high-school gymnasium, now add 300 folding cots, Now add 500 shocked, confused, injured, displaced refugees who have just lost everything that means anything to them of all ages demanding why the authorities have let this happen to them and wanting to know why something hasn't already been done to fix the situation, Now add three days and the onset of extreme hunger due to lack of adequate food supplies, sleep deprivation due to over crowding and armed national guardsmen keeping the peace.<br><br>Caution this may be an exageration or not.<br><br>public shelters will be set up in any public building left structurally intact with a large enough interior space to house a few hundred cots or sleeping bags. They will be setup by the Red Cross and the National Guard probably in that order.<br><br>You will be housed and somewhat fed in this environment and when Uncle Sam sends in aid it will be showered on these locations first.<br><br>OTOH, if you are even remotely prepared with someplace to go that is outside the damage perimeter then you will be much more secure and comfortable even if you have to hike for a day or two to reach it. Some place like a friends place in a suburb, a cabin on a plot of land you might own that you can reach by 4X4 or Mountain bike, A cached camping supply in a self storage shed in a near-by suburb that you can reach by mountain bike and a pre-determined and evaluated camp-site in a suburban wood-lot or rail or highway right-of-way. All of these options would be preferrable to me over the shelter. At least until the aid starts to arrive from Uncle Sam. People in shelters will be much more amicable after they are getting well fed and there are obvious signs of an effort by Big Brother to set things right.<br><br>I'd rather dance with the wolves than try to sleep with the panicked sheep.

The only things that my first thoughts say you left out are:<br><br>1. The level of "whine and complain" in the shelter will be absolutely astounding.<br>2. The authorities will tell you what they think you need to know only when they think you should know it (knowledge is power).<br>3. The authorities will ensure that you have nothing with which you might hurt yourself or others (think airport security on steroids).<br><br>Not that I have an opinion on this or anything......<br><br>When Andrew approached Louisiana in 1992 I executed my own bug out plan, leaving for a site of known availability 90 miles inland. Best decision I ever made.<br><br>Alan

Skunk,<br><br>Avoid shelters if at all possible. A few underprepared friends are a better alternative than a mob of under/unprepared strangers and un/underprepared local/state/federal government relief agencies.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Do you think your friends have enough space in the back of a closet where you could store a Rubbermaid tub or cardboard box of stuff? Tape the box shut, label with your name, and put in the bottom of the hall closet.<br><br>They may be unprepared but you don't have to be. You could remedy that by leaving a few things at their place. How about a change of clothes, extra socks & underwear, some bottled water, backpacking stove, some canned goods, pasta, matches, lighter, flashlight & batteries, portable radio, knife, rope, tarp(s), wool blanket(s), first aid kit, leather gloves, Boy Scout Fieldbook, day pack. All of this would easily fit in a 12"x12"x24" box. <br><br>Probably could fit a few more things in that would be useful. Bandanna, water purification stuff, trash bags, space blanket, mediations, etc. Look at the Red Cross 72 hour kit recommendations for ideas.<br><br>Might include a few things that you could share with them so they don't feel left out. A LED flashlight would be a cool gift that would be useful. Maybe a Swiss Army Knife.<br><br>Maybe suggest they put together a similar box with clothes that fit them that they can leave at your place so they can run to you if they have a problem?

Since you may end up at a shelter you would be much better off recognized as one of the individuals in charge of the shelter rather than one of the poor helpless victims. If you become involved in a Community Emergency Response Team or a Ham ARES / RACES club or the local American Red Cross or even the National Guard you will be quite busy helping others but you will get first access to aid and supplies and will be much better prepared than nearly anyone else and you will be a member of a larger team that will support you.

I totally agree with miniMe. Becoming involved with your local emergency response group(s) gives you a much better understanding of the difficulties of dealing with an unprepared mass of "victims", provides a degree of respect and authority for you and allows you to assist rather than be one who needs assisting. <br><br>I am involved in my local ACS (Auxillary Communication Service, an ARES/RACES group). We meet weekly on a radio communication net, and have group meetings to preplan emergency service responsibilities. Diverse membership and ideas greatly contribute to the plans. Training and simulations help in the event of a real emergency.<br><br>I have signed up for CERT training this fall. This consists of 8, 3 hour training sessions on topics including Disaster Prepardness, Disaster Fire Suppression, Emergency Medical Operations and Triage, Search and Rescue, Team Organization, and a Disaster Similation.<br><br>Being involved is probably the best way to assure your own safety, make your own prepardness planning realistic within the context of your community, and contribute in a positive way to your community. <br><br>Sometimes Bugging Out may be the best plan, but most of the time Bugging In to help may be a better solution. <br>

Minime,<br><br>Good suggestions. With one noteable exception. Avoid the National Guard. I can give you thousands of reasons to do this, but the only ones that apply to this scenario are these:<br><br>1. In a civil disaster, you may be called on to do things that you have no training for. As an example during Hurricane Elena, National guard troops provided security in some of the shelters. The guardsmen were not MPs, nor were they infantry, or any other MOS that might have some training in security. They were clerks. People, mostly guardsmen, were hurt as a result.<br><br>2. After Hurricane Andrew guardsmen were sent out to patrol against looting. They were issued rifles, but no ammuntion. Guess what happened?<br><br>3. You may be called out when it is you who are in need. An aquaintance of mine, who was rendered homeless during recent floods, was called up the day after his house washed away. He wisely refused to report in, but is still in the process of getting off the NG's excrement-list.<br><br>4. You may not be in any better shape than anyone else. Guardsmen (in my experience) recieve food and water the same time everyone else does. And the same amount...subsistence rations, when they are/have been working very hard for long hours.<br><br><br>I love Guardsman, heck I am one, because I love what they (try to) defend, but the Guard is the least trained, least equipped, least professional, and most poorly led outfit in the US military. They are more an attempt to stockpile half-trained soldiers who can be easliy and cheaply exploited in times of emergency, than they are a viable military force.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Minimi, great suggestions.<br><br>I thought about joining all of those :)<br><br>Air National Guard, not sure about, because I may leave California and immigrate to the US, not sure if it would transfer over.<br><br>My school has an emergency comms group, but the door is ALWAYS locked and the contact people never get back to me. Not the type of group I would like to join, IMO.<br><br>The city has an emergency group that seems quite involved and meets once a month. Unfortunately, it is on the same night as a campus fellowship meeting so I haven't checked it out yet.<br><br>The question is will the smaller civic groups be able to adequately help, or are they (like the National Guard, who were my heroes of the LA riots) usually thrown to the wolves (sheep)?

Resqman,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Do you think your friends have enough space in the back of a closet where you could store a Rubbermaid tub or cardboard box of stuff? Tape the box shut, label with your name, and put in the bottom of the hall closet.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Heh. A "Bug-Over" Box. That's a pretty neat idea. Thanks!

Involvement with a group is only an option for those that are dedicated and willing to participate in the training and deployments. As a member of both the NC-1 DMAT and the National Medical Response Team-WMD East, I can vouch that participation in regular training is essential if you hope to be useful during a deployment.<br>I can also tell you that participation in an emergency team does NOT provide for your family. I have been deployed on hurricane responses in North Carolina and my wife and kids have been "on their own" with me gone.<br>There is NO substitute for personal planning and preparation.<br>As a retired USAR/Army National Guard officer with 11 years enlisted guard experience, I disagree entirely with the comments made re: the guard. For the most part, I have found the units that I have been assigned to professional and the folks reasonably well trained. I deployed on two state emergencies due to hurricane related flooding and found the service we provided to be usefull and gratifying. <br>I have never been provided with less than suitable housing in the field, nor did I miss a meal or fail to get other essentials during any deployment (other than during wargames at the Joint Readiness Training Center) during my 25 year experience with the guard and reserve.

As a member of one of the "un/underprepared local/state/federal government relief agencies" I take strong exception to your comments. <br>Unfortunately, many people have no option in an evacuation but to go to a public shelter. We have frequent experience with evacuation here in coastal North Carolina due to hurricanes. Public shelters are a reality for most folks as everyone can't evacuate several hundred miles to avoid the effects of the storm due to traffic and other factors. <br>When Hurricane Floyd hit us a couple years ago, I had to protect my office and home first and then make a decision about evacuation. My choice was made for me by the tremendous traffic jam on the highways. We rode out the storm at home.<br>There were tens of thousands of people living in shelters for weeks following the storm. All being cared for by volunteers.<br>People evacuating to a shelter are responsible for their own food, medications, clothing, and water during their stay. We (NC-1 DMAT) provided medical care and distributed food (MRE's), water, and sanitation and infant care supplies for weeks to shelter bound refugees.<br>In large part, the refugees were unprepared and inequipped for their shelter stay.

BeachDoc,<br><br><br><br>Although your experiences do not match mine re the National Guard, I am glad to hear them. Perhaps the four Guard units I have served in are exceptions, rather than the rule...I hope so at least. According to a fairly recent article in the Army Times, the Guard/Reserve now comprises 60+% of the total force, a thought, which given my experiences in the Guard, scares me. <br><br>If there was an error in my post, it was in assuming that all Guard units function at the low level of the ones that I have served in. In my defense, my opinion is shared almost universally by other Guard members of my aquaintance who, like me, served for extended periods on active duty. Even the worst of my active duty stations were leaps and bounds ahead of any guard unit I am familiar with in terms of professionalism, training, leadership, readiness, preparation, planning, morale and funding. It my be comparing apples and oranges, but it is what I have to go on. <br><br>For the record, I have missed meals in the Guard, and I have slept on bare concrete because there was no alternative. I have been issued a weapon, but no ammo, when there was reason to expect that I might need both. I have been assigned to duties for which I had no training, no experience and no clue. <br><br>Once again, I hope your experiences are the norm, rather than mine.<br><br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy<br>

BeachDoc,<br><br><br>No offense intended. My comment was poorly worded; it was aimed more at the fact that huge numbers of refugees strain the resources of any agency. It was not intended to reflect individual competencies, as most relief workers I have met were very competent. I apologize for that.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

"Make it do, use it up, go without." I quickly learned in the service to find the most respected senior NCOs/Petty officers, stay close, shut up and open my ears and eyes.My first "sea daddy" said the only thing to really sweat was running out of salt water. I learned to take SNAFU'S and FUBAR'S as a given. It's not hard to think outside the box when supply sends it somewhere else.

If I could butt in here just a moment...<br><br>I've been around ARNG and US Army Reserve units in a variety of "situations" and IMHO the two of you are simply reporting different experiences - both of you could be right on target from what I have seen. My observations are from the perspective of an Active Duty carreer in the US Army.<br><br>I think it is fair to say that generally the USAR units are better trained and prepared to perform their wartime missions than ARNG units - and there are a ton of reasons for those circumstances. <br><br>Emergency responses to disasters are not the same thing as wartime missions (we hope). I have no first hand experience with USAR units in domestic disasters that I can recall. <br><br>I do have first hand experiences with ARNG units in domestic disasters, and from my perspective they all did OK for a short period of time (less than 2 weeks). Some did a fantastic job and did it for an extended period of time. Some did OK for a while and then... citizens asked those units to be withdrawn or replaced and TAGs complied with those requests. There was one state that had a truly sad concept of using the ARNG, but I cannot blame the soldiers from Captain on down for that - the problem was clearly and squarely in the state capitol (the governor's residence...) The other states I had opportunities to work with did OK at worst, and individual units (up to brigade size) did remarkable things.<br><br>The biggest "problem" is making intelligent decisions about exactly what the best use is of the ARNG units and the soldiers in them. Again, in my experience, the key decision-makers (who are RARELY the ones you see in the news, and BOY, could I tell some tales about THAT!) in large scale situations have zero control over those decisions and little or no influence. It is an unfortunate fact that ARNG units seem to get tossed into situations aimed as much (or more) at political objectives as at realistic assistance. That's not the soldier's fault...<br><br>I could go on at great length, but my main point is that you both are probably correct. Doc, I had the privilege of working with some truly outstanding ARNG units in some disasters, and they really did themselves proud (and I might add, so did the Governor's office in that state - too bad he chose to retire). Andy, I saw other things exactly like your experiences <shudder> - just recalling some of those still gets me mad as heck.<br><br>I'll butt out now...<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Karen Glenn of "Frontier House" is currently posting on Frugal's "Homesteading and Self Sufficiency" forum. Quite interesting !!! _________________________________________________ Proverbs 21:19

CERT training may be a way for your whole family to get involved. It is a FEMA based program. You get a group together. It may be your neighborhood, your work place, your volunteer organization, church, whatever. You take 18-21 hr training course, usually given in 3 hr segments over several weeks. Basic first aid, fire extingisher, some buiding stabilization, a few other things. <br><br>Then the local Emergency Management can call on your team to assist in needed. Your team provides your own support but at least you have some basic training. Since it is a volunteer organization, your entire family can participate. The training is taught by local EMS, Fire, Rescue, and law enforcement. That way you get to know them and they get a sense of the dedication of your group.<br><br>The training slides are available on the web. The instructor guides are also available. These are just overhead slide presentation material and do not inculde all the information you would hope to get in a training session but would give you an idea of what to expect. <br><br>Search the web for existing CERT teams and what they have done. <br><br>The program was designed in California to encourage local neighborhoods to provide basic relief post earthquake when emergency services are streched to the limit with long response times. The idea was that your immediate neighbors will respond anyway. Why not give them some basic training to reduce their injuries, make them more effect and enpower the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. to take care of themselves.<br><br>Even if your CERT team never responds and disbands immediately after the training, you got some training, you met some people in public safety, and have begun to get some tools and knowledge to help yourself.<br><br>You could get the training on your own. The first aid training in similar to the basic Red Cross training. Fire extinisher training can be taught for $10 per person in a hour. Stabilization is just using lumber like lincon logs to support structures.<br><br>I am a member of a rescue squad. We are on the state resource list to be called up if needed. We are expected to care for ourselves the first 72 hours. Our response vehicles are filled with rescue equipment and when we all bring our personal supplies, it can be crowded. Response agencies are often put under an equal amount of strain and lack of provisions as the refugees. The major difference is we have volunteered for such conditions and our mind set is different. We realize that no one will save us, it is up to us to not only save ourselves but others. Even so, it is nice to find a place to take a shower, get some hot food, and sleep undisturbed for a while.

There are safety in numbers if all the numbers are cooperating. If you are a student then you probably don't need to worry overly much about a wife or kids. Get yourself involved in whatever group you can that will be focused on surviving whatever disasters you might be preparing for. You can choose from many public / civic minded organizations that will be attempting to help others during a disaster / emergency or you might easily find a band of true "survivalists" and there find an isolationist group with truely significant preparedness. When / If the SHTF, these isolationist Survivalist groups will be sitting pretty telling the rest of us "I told you so" as they defend their cache with the best armament they could procure. Whatever you choose remember that participation within a group requires a certain conformity of philosophy. As for me and mine I am choosing to participate with the civic minded organizations. My state doesn't have any CERT programs yet but I am working on that. My approach is to bet HAM, EMT certified (attained) volunteer for the local EMS which is volunteer and then start to lobby for the formation of CERT programs. Unfortunately I became civic minded after my 35 birthday so the NG and AR units are not interested in my aged contributions.

No problem. I know that the feds have taken some well deserved hits in the past. Shelters remain the province and responsibility of the local and state folks, often with on-site management by the red cross. <br>The Guard has a different level of responsibility in disasters and teams like the USPHS DMAT's have another....pure medical and outreach.<br>There certainly is room for improvement, the move toward "CERT" teams is a step. I think that communities should take more responsibility locally for taking care of themselves, like the old Civil Defense model of the 50-60's.<br>Unfortunately, the Guard is , in my experience, trained in the warfare-mission realated tasks and not disaster related issues.<br>I agree with a number of the posts that criticize the deployment of guardsmen with unloaded weapons, I have been in that situation myself in the 70's. Anyone remember Kent State?? I do and am not eager to repeat the experience. Unfortunately, the guard does not have the luxury of unlimited training opportunities and they "powers that be" tend to throw them where they often don't really belong. (like airports......)

BOB, Bug Over Box. Just a PC friendly way of saying cacheing. Store small stashes of supplies all around your area of operation.<br><br>Like any cache, you have to weigh the possiblities of others finding your cache, access to the cache, and what do to if the cache is not available when you need it either due to access or pilfering.<br><br>In the instance where you are storing a box of stuff at a friends, you might want to get a key to their property. By encouraging them to store a similar box of supplies are your property with clothing and items that are specific to them, you are building a trust. You are also opening yourself to them bringing "friends" along with them when they bug out to your place. It seems it would be prudent to stock some extra blankets, food, and water for those "friends". You might also want to strongly ask them not to share the location of your respective bug out destinations with anyone. You might have others showing up on your doorstep whom you do not know asking for assistance.<br><br>We have a family friend that is located half way along my daily commute. I keep meaning to put together a BOB and leave it at their house. Maybe this will be the kick in the anatomy I need to make that happen. They recently remodeled their home and removed their hall closet. They do have a shed in the back yard. Maybe if I vacum seal the various components before storing in a lockable rubbermaid tub, it will limit loss due to moisture or rodents.