I was dumb enough to agree to teach a session on knots for new cub scout leaders. Of course, I do know how to tie all of the basic required scout knots, but thought some of you might have some words of wisdom to share on the topic.

For those of you who have taught scouts, what size/type of rope do you like best for teaching, for example?

Any games, drills, tips or tricks you would like to share?

As a non-scout relative knot newbie...

Please consider giving examples of when to use a particular knot. Last time this came up on here, I was told to "practice". Yeah. Well. As a knot beginer, I can tell you that doesn't really work. There's more to the sucessful application of a knot than knowing how to tie it. Plus, I think it's easier to remember a knot if you have a reason to use it. If you are teaching knots you can't give uses for, that oughta tell you something. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I was in scouts, I always found it was easier to tie knots in larger rope than thinner rope. I'd suggest something in the 3/8" range.

If you can get two different colors of rope/line for each scout and yourself, it will help visualize the construction of each knot, bend, etc.

If you have the knots, bends, etc. already made up (knot board), as well in different stages of development in larger diameter rope/line, it helps to visualize the progression.

Lots of patients <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pete

In case this isn't already in your plan, it would be helpful for future practice if you provided printed handouts illustrating each of the knots. Lots of sites with easy-to-follow color photos and diagrams.

If you're sensitive about copyrights, many appear to allow reproduction for educational and non-commercial purposes.

How about a group buy for them on these scout knot cards..

for what it's worth...the only knots you need to know on the national firefighter certification test are:

Figure 8
Figure 8 on a Bight
Figure 8 follow-through
Bowline
Becket (or Sheet) Bend
Half-Hitch
Clove Hitch

I use all of these but the Bowline all the time. Just last night, we did an auto extrication - car on its side - and we used rope to secure the vehicle -
2 huge metal stakes into the ground, either side of the vehicle, first clove hitch and 2 half hitches to the one stake, rope up, over, around the frame, back through two 8's on a bight, which acted as a ratchet, and then to the other stake, clove & 2 half hitches there. Rope was so tight you could walk on it. Car was STABLE.

I've found that, with few exceptions, if you can't do it with a variation on the figure 8, maybe you shoudn't be doing it.

Thanks to all. Good suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

Groo,

You are so right. Knowing which knot to tie is as important as knowing how to tie it.

With my Cub Scouts, we went through how to tie knots. It wasn't until when I put them outside with rope and tarps and let them start building shelters and stuff that they really got into learning knots.

A former Cubmaster here (and current Trainer) --

One of our cub camp directors had great success teaching knots by first teaching the names of the part of the line -- running end, standing part; and teaching the basic parts of a knot and used memonics i.e- a bight (looks like a mouth that bites...:D), overhand, and underhand loops.

Using the line names and building blocks really helped with the reef (square) knot --
Most people teach it as "left over right, right over left," but most people's muscle memory causes them to tie both halves the same way.
Our camp director used:
- start like you are tying your shoes,
- now take the rope in your left (or right) hand and make a bight against the standing part (point and demonstrate).
- next tuck the end in your right (or left) hand under the bight.
- pull tight and you have a reef or square knot.

He had them tying the knot behind their back in about 10 minutes... definite confidence builder for the boys.

Gordian knots?

I just use Alexander's approach with my SAK.

Ron,

I taught my 4 sons how to tie the Cub Scout and Boy Scout required knots and other knots. I was a CS den leader and taught my den the CS knots. The Boy Scout store sells 1/8” white braided nylon cord that is perfect. It feels good in your hands and is easy to tie knots with. The worst is thick, stiff, scratchy rope. I worked on all the knots until I could do them easily myself. Any that require a loop I turned into a right hand/clockwise loop.

As an example let me tell you how I describe how to tie a bowline knot: let the rope hang down, take your fingers and turn the rope and make a loop my doing a clockwise turn, then take the end of the rope and pretend it is a rabbit, the loop is its hole, and the part about the loop is a tree. Then the rabbit come out of the hole, around the back of the tree, and back down the hole. Pull the rope tight and you have the knot. For the square not I tell them to just switch directions for the second loop. If the ends are on the same side it is a square knot. If they are on opposite sides it is a thief’s knot. If it is a mess it’s a granny knot. My oldest son cheated by tying it like a sheet bend and putting the end through the loop instead of across the loop.

Why don’t you list the knots you are teaching and we can give you ideas on how to make them easy to learn for young boys. The bowline - rabbit, hole, and tree trick must be as old-as-the-hills. My sons would almost be/were in tears when they tried to do a knot and it would come out wrong, especially if their brothers could do it.

Happy scouting! You are doing a great service for America by helping to build great men.

Thank you!

Ron,

Good deal - very worthwhile and hope you have fun. You already have some great suggestions from others. I'm the "Go-to" ASM for a troop and have a little experience to draw on.

[Edit] Re-reading your post, it sunk in that you will be teaching adults. Cool. Get nice rope and give them a piece 8' - 12' long to keep. Handouts to keep, as suggested. Rope/knot terminology first, then knots. Use an assistant if possible. If you can borrow some spars from a boy scout troop, do so - lash up a couple of hitching posts (like a street barricade) if you have the materials available; if not, just bring enough for one per every 2 - 3 leaders. After showing how to tie a knot, break into 2-3 person groups and talk/demonstrate a second time. Make sure you or your assistant see every person's knot before going on to the next one and help each person with difficulty once, then turn it over to the partner or partners. Don't let them form groups on their own - use an ice breaker event that results in the size groups you want them in. Ideas for that if you need - just ask. The rest of my post still applies. [End Edit]

Rope: I greatly prefer Lehigh 5/16" Diamond Braid Polyester Rope for teaching basic knots to scouts and for general utility use. It would be nice to use 9mm dynamic line, but it's pretty pricey to cut up a bunch of 6 - 12 foot lengths just to teach knots. For cubs, I'd cut a 50 ft length into 10 equal lengths and let them keep the rope. For scouts I'd cut it into 5 equal lengths and let them keep it, as that is a practical length bit of this size rope to keep for doing useful things.

3/8" natural fiber rope is OK if it is on hand. 1/4" to 3/8" braided nylon is nice, too, but I always come back to the 5/16" diamond braid polyester, year after year. (Please do NOT confuse this with polyethylene ot polypropylene ropes - those suck for teaching knots) If the budget is tight but you want to look sharp and maybe make it easier for cubs, Lehigh has some 5/32" neon poly braided stuff that works pretty well and you can probably give each cub two 5' lengths, each of different color. It's a little small for best teaching, but you can work with it, and it makes good lanyards and OK guy lines for light duty tarp use.

But if you start teaching life safety and/or climbing knots, use the appropriate rescue, dynamic, or static ropes, not some make-shift substitute.

Stick to the method that works: "Tell, Show, Do".

Knots are BEST taught to boys one-on-one. It usually works OK with two scouts per instructor. It is VERY ineffective to teach knots to a group of boys at one time - it's simply not a very good group activity. (It is barely effective to teach a small group of adults knots, and even that requires a significant amount of one-on-one interaction as difficulties arise).

In one evening, I suggest that the rope terminology be taught and then a couple of basic knots if you have time. Make sure you have a knowledgable assistant to circulate - a Boy Scout Den Chief would be ideal. Not many folks are good at teaching boys knots; it's not simply the knowledge. You'll know it when you see it.

Long enough. Buy some rope and just go do it. Have fun and hang around afterwards for the few that will sincerely want to learn a bit more.

YiS,

Tom

Most of those illustrations would have us fearing dyslexia. I knew a bos'un with a marvelous teaching aid for incomprehensible knots. It was a condemned length of manila ship's hawser thicker than your forearm. Dragging that monster on a flight deck with him yelling " the elephant comes out of the crater, around the redwoodtree and back into the crater" as students dragged that monster never failed to demonstrate the finer details. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I learned knots to get my 'practical factors' signed off that I've never even seen again. But, like stripping a garand in the dark I can still tie them.

I agre with Groo's suggestions about knowing where to use them.

I have also used some thought provoking by usking people if they know names of knots I've already prepared.
Within that group of kots I have a Theif knot and a Reef knot.
Everybody will identify the Theif knot as a Reef. (If they know the name) I then get them to pull the Reef and show that it wont pull apart, and then try the Theif and watch there faces as it unravels.
Then I start to show them how to tie a Reef without the posibility of accidently making a Thief Knot.

It gets them thinking a they pay attention after that.

Also use rope big enough that they dont have to rely on finger nails to untie.

Ron,

I am a den leader, now in my Webelos II year, and when working on knots I bought some fairly thick (1/2"?) cotton sash cord from Ace Hardware. I bought some cotton string too. I cut the rope into 6' and 4' lengths and then whipped the ends before using them. It wasn't cheap, but it is kind to the hands and handles real well. The thicker rope is easier for young kids to handle. Thin cord (1/4" or 3/8") is just too thin for the younger boys and most synthetics are too slippery.

Figure one 6' & 4' pair for each boy. I'd also recommend you hang on to them. If the ropes go home with the boys - they will get lost. You'll use them again for the Webelos Outdoorsman activity badge next year.

I'd demonstrate the knot to the boy and his parent, and then we'd all work together to tie it properly, then untie, the re-tie, untie, retie .... you get the idea. The Handbook gives good info, but web searches will give additional info. Don't try to teach too much at any one time since the boys are easily overwhelmed.

I'd also recommend you repeat the practice through the year to reinforce memory.

I would NEVER use the sash cord in the field, but it makes for great learning rope. It would be great of the two ends were dyed different colors, but I didn't have the time to do that.

Another cool thing we did was to make rope. Take three different colors of yarn (I used purple, yellow & red) and cut one 15' length of each. Tie together each end using an overhand knot. Now, find an small screw hook and insert it into the chuck on a drill. Tie one end of the three yarn lengths to the eye on the drill. have someone hold the free end of the yarn while you run the drill to twist, twist, twist the lengths of yarn until pretty tight.

Now, while having one person holding the free end and another person holding the drill end, have a third person grab onto the twisted year midway between the ends - hold it securely for now. Slip the end off of the drill and walk it over to the person holding the other end and give it to them without loosing tension or allowing it to untwist. Tie the two ends together with another overhand knot. At this point one person has both free ends and another is holding the middle, with neither letting thier parts twist or loosen. Now without letting go of the original ends side, have the person with the middle part gently release their grip so that it can just barely twist in their hand, but they should still maintain some tension. Don't just let go, but do let it twist. Gently stroke along the length of the rope to smooth it out.

It magically turns into twisted rope. It is very cool and meets the respective Bear requirement. For real fun repeat this again with three legths of yarn rope and see what you get. Having different colors allow you to see what happened.

I only had 4 boys in my den. Each boy had about a 4-foot length of ¼” or 5/16” braided nylon cord. I kept the cord. I would demonstrate the knot a few times. Then I had them tie the knot with me one step at a time. We did that until they all got it. Then I had them tie it on their own. The boys think that if they get it once they know it. Often if you ask them to do it again they fail. I would have them tie the knot several time on their own. For the boys that were having difficulty, I would help them one-on-one until they could tie the knot. It is amazing how hard knots are to teach, even the square knot.

I have this book:

The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots & Ropework

It's pretty good, and most pages will show the knot in use. There are also some decorative ropework too.

Edited:

The author also has this:

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Knots

If you bring some water to a boil, then take it off the heat and add some Koolaid and the cotton ropes, then leave the ropes to soak overnight, you can dye the cotton different colors. Useful if you're are tying two ropes together, to tell which rope is which. Or you could just buy ropes in different colors, but my way is more fun. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also, I liked Chris's post about the elephat rope. Mnemonics are often useful, but some of them are overused and forgettable. When I was learning to read music everyone memorized the Mnemonic "Every Good Boy Does Fine." However, I had trouble remembering it (Every Boy . . . Does Good Deeds?) until one of my music teachers announced, "Every Green Baboon Drinks Fresca." Well, that was a much more memorable Mnemonic! So remember, if you use mnemonics, make them memorable!

I recommend ``The Complete Rigger's Apprentice'' by Brian Toss .

His book has as much of the theory on knots as a knot user needs to know, great instructions on how to tie them, and, most important of all, great instructions on how and when to use them. He talks about securing timbers, guying a mast, joining ropes, and so on.

It's sail boat oriented, but I think all that's left out that might be useful is the sheepshank knot. I think that's a pretty small loss. It also means that there are excellent sections on decorative knots, using wire rope (you won't want that for your present class, but it's good to know), and much more. I have an earlier version which was excellent, and I've heard that this one is better.

Heck, I'm just impressed that you know how to spell mnemonics. I can barely even say it, let alone spell it. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just to write that last sentence I had to copy and paste from your post. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I disagree!

For learning knots for Cub Scouts I recommend “Knots and how to tie them” by Boy Scouts of America. It is a white booklet with 31 pages and covers all the Boy Scout required knots and then some. I think is cost about $5.00 at the Boy Scout Store. It is a waste of time, money, and effort to study the large knot books. If you are into mountain climbing or sailing that is a different issue.

For something that "seems" like it should be simple, teaching knots often feels more like it's Rocket Science. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

There were lots of great ideas already posted here. One thing that I have learned in teaching Cubs, Webelos, and Boy Scouts is that you can't teach very many knots in one session. They need to repeat the same knot, many many times. They need to be able to tie it with their eyes closed. (They'll be setting up a tent in the dark sometime and realize why.)

Ok, so how do you do that? (Short attention spans, boredom, etc.) What I do is make sure that I have lots of "props" that can be used to illustrate the many different ways to use a particular knot. Think of all the ways you could use a bowline, and let the boys (or your adults in training) try to use the new knot they have "mastered" in different situations.

What we called it was "Knot of the Week". Each troop meeting for about 2 months had a new knot featured in a short session. You can make it competitive also, if you have a group that likes a little challenge. You can have a series of knot challenges, and score the patrol on time and accuracy.

In the end, try to make it fun. Please don't try to teach them ten knots in a single session, it usually ends in frustration, and they come away not able to tie any of them well.

Best of luck!

Craig, I'm sure that the one you recommend is a better book for teaching the cub couts from. The teacher needs to be able to show enough enthusiasm that there will be plenty to rub off on the students, and ``The Complete Rigger's Apprentice'' will be a big help there.


I agree, don't start the cubbies with TCRA. I guess I hadn't realised that he was looking for a text for the kids to use. TCRA for the teacher, and something appropriate for the little guys.

If you're thinking of something like Ashley's book, I agree with you. Those books are endless, tedious lists of minor variations on knots you'll never use, and you can't imagine why anyone ever would use them.

TCRA is a relentlessly practical book (except for the section on decorative knots, which is only slightly practical), and does a great job of explaining and motivating some really useful knots, and teaches you how to tie them in the real world.

I did my knot program Saturday. Two sessions with about a dozen cub scout leaders in each class. Thanks to all for your input and suggestion.

I was able to locate a local place that sells second/ surplus rope and told them I needed some short peices for teaching knots to scouts. I was able to get a whole big box full of short (4 - 20 ft.) ends and peices of 1/4 - 3/8 inch soft braided poly rope for $15 that worked great. (I have enough rope to keep the cubs and the scouts supplied for years.)

One participant said he had attended a class the year before and especially like that I did not try to teach every knot in the world, but rather that I spent time on each knot and went over when to use it and what it's strenghts and weaknesses were. On every knot I tried to give examples of where they would want to use that knot (and where you would not want to use it). For example Tautline hitch: When you are camping and putting up a tarp or tent, this is the knot you tie around the tent stake. This is how you use the knot.

Most of these were new scout leaders and they really did seem to be as much or more interested in the why as the how.


I told them that many of the terms used in knots come from sailing days, so the first thing we have to learn is how to talk like a sailor.
I started out the knots with the overhand knot. This is the knot you have tied all of your life. It is so easy to tie that it will even tie itself in your rope when you least expect it. (this got a good laugh, and I thought it best to start easy with something everyone knows)

Using the overhand knot, I started on rope terms. This is a type of stopper knot. This is the working end and that is the standing part. Now if I tie the same knot, but I loop the end over like this, this is called a bight. If I stick the bight through the loop I have a slipped overhand or slip knot. Anyway, I went though a half dozen different variations on the overhand knot and used that to teach basic terms and to illustrate that if you learn a few basic knots, you can move on to more complex knots just by adding another twist or turn.

After we got through playing around with the overhand, I told them we will now learn some better knots. The figure 8 as a stopper knot is better than the over hand. Why? Tie one in each end of your rope. Pull as hard as you can. Now untie them! Figure 8 loop is better than overhand loop .....

Anyway, had great fun on Saturday. Thanks again for all of your suggestions. It really did help getting your feedback. I passed on some of your games and suggestions also.

One thing I do need to work on a bit more is how to tie a knot backwards. When you tie a knot you are holding it in front of you. When you try to show someone else, you need to turn it around so that they see the view you normally see and you are looking at the back of the knot. If you don't do a few of those in advance, it will throw you off. On many knots it doesn't matter, but something like a Bowline is tricky if you rotate the way you are used to doing it.

Just an idea, but have you thought about getting a cheap lipstick/bullet camera. They cost here about $70 Australian dollars. If you connect it to a TV, they see what you see. Some of the guys here have them clipped onto their helmets while they ride. (motocross, enduro etc) For this exercise you can zip tie it the the peak of a baseball cap, and as you are tie it shows up on the TV.
I'm sure with the scouts, you could find lots of other uses for the camera aswell.
Alternatively put a normal video camera connected to the TV on a tripod or something similar and stand behind the tripod with your hands in front of the camera.

Several folks have mentioned liking thicker rope for teaching knots. On the other end of the spectrum, what about paracord? It's not too pricey if you're handing it out to groups, and what I have found is that I EDC a length in my pocket, which is comfortable in the pocket, and I always have something to practice with. Plus it doesn't unravel and it holds up over time. That might encourage the scouts to keep it with them to practice. The only drawback I've found is that if I'm working on a knot over and over, it starts to rub my fingers raw...I don't know if that happens with other rope/cord.

I agree that practice (along with a practical use) is most important. I had a kid a couple of weeks ago in a martial arts class just learning how to fall. He did the fall a few times and then stopped. I told him to keep working and he said, "I did it five times, I know it." Like one of the SAS books says, you have to know how to tie the knot so well that you can do it in the dark, with numb, shaking hands, because your life just may depend on it.

With music, martial arts, knot tying, whatever...I feel that if I have to think about what I'm doing, then I don't know it well enough yet. That is a hard concept for kids to understand.

Five times == know how to do it, that way, here, on this mat, falling that way.

Five thousand times == Will do it without thinking about it, under all conditions, without notice, anywhere.

The brain can be programmed for automatic reaction, but it takes lots of repetition. I _still_ can't tie some knots unless I'm facing "the right way", but I'm working on it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In regards to falling, I tell them they need to do it five thousand times, and then maybe they will start to understand it, and then another five thousand times and they might begin to learn it, and another five thousand times...

I've tried tying knots the opposite way, and I've had a real challenge with it. I guess my spatial ability isn't as good as I thought it was <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Is that a test you have to take at someNASA facility ?!? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That is the way you see things in your mind. for example one test is to see how a diagram on a piece of paper would look if folded along the lines. Draftsmen and architects should have good spatial aptitude.