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#4774 - 03/10/02 05:35 PM It's a guy thing
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
Firearms are a frequent topic on the forum . I own the latest incarnation of my first "1000 shot Red Ryder Daisy air rifle with compass in the stock; you'll shoot your eye out Chris, NO!" While they are discussed by Doug, required carry in some locals ( Alaska and the Canadian bush;) It is generally agreed they are not always necessary or needed in most situations. We have this image of dropping a charging grizzly or carrying a pig quarter back to the cave. Truth is, attacks are rare. The higher mammals ( especially carnivores) have highly variable individual personalities ( sound like a rather nasty species that is bipedal?) This is how we domesticated a few suitable wolves into the dog. Bears are NOT unpredictable. Individual behavior is. This attitude is why bears worldwide are in trouble, not the population of campers, hunters and day hikers.So, if you pack a firearm for survival thats fine and prudent. Figuring out which end the hurt comes out and when it is appropriate is a part of the self education we practice here.

#4775 - 03/11/02 01:24 PM Re: It's a guy thing

I think itís just natural.<br><br>Iíve always fully supported the ďthrustĒ of this site for a several reasons. For one, itís what Doug wants, and itís his site. For another, it avoids certain controversies that often completely obscure the intended purpose of some other on-line discussions. Third, from a purely selfish viewpoint, the focus of this site and forum has kept them a source of valuable information thatís much more difficult to find elsewhere- whereas there are seemingly millions of sources of information about weapons and firearms. Many are contradictory, but does anyone really need one more? Those are the reasons that, even though Iím an endowment member of the NRA etc. etc., I was troubled by the apparent change of focus in the ďurban survivalĒ section when it appeared- and I still feel that the urban section should at least contain a lot more non-weapon information- but thatís another subject.<br><br>I also agree with Cyberravenís point with respect to the mistake of focusing on food for short-term survival. Some might remember that I posted an opinion to that effect months ago that got a little more widely discussed than I would have anticipated.<br><br>However, as much as we might respect the focus of this forum, many of us do have interests that encompass scenarios outside of itís main thrust (well, the Earth being flipped by a Planet X fly-by is not on my calendar for next year, but SOME other scenarios, anyway ;-) ) , and thereís bound to be some bleed-over. Firearms may not be worth carrying for food procurement in short-term, localized survival situations in whatís left of the wilderness in most of North America, but that may not be the exact scenario most in the minds of those interested in the subject.<br><br>After all, discussions of the storage life of canned foods and MREs, or battery-recharging shoes are not much aligned with the focus, either, but somehow nobody gets much concerned. Within some limits, I think you have to just let people discuss what theyíre interested in discussingÖ or they wonít be interested.<br>

#4776 - 03/11/02 10:36 PM Re: It's a guy thing

id generally be more afraid of insects, ( lime carrying fleas and ticks) and of poisinous snakes. in a survival situation, it is much more reasonable to focus your problems on the essentials, like shelter, water and food. Bears should be the least of your worries. the liklihood of a bear attack is slim to none although it is constanly on the hiker/campers mind. and when bears do attack (lol "When Bears Attack!") it is generally the persons fault. getting in between a bear and her cubs = big no no. cooking and sleeping in the same area = asking for uninvited guests. fish smell = bears favorite, wash your hands after handling fish and keep you clothes clean, if you cant... then fish naked! ( why not?)

#4777 - 03/12/02 01:26 AM Re: It's a guy thing
AndyO Offline

Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 167
Loc: Jawja
When I carry a firearm afield, it is for sporting purposes or for thwarting 2 legged vermin. I have walked up on more than one hidden dope field while backpacking and I was glad I could protect myself as I slowly backed up. I have walked to proximity of many a black bear and boar, and I was able each time to avoid confrontaton. In the case of the four legged variety, drawing my handgun was never a consideration.
Two is one, one is none. That is why I carry three.

#4778 - 03/12/02 05:41 AM Re: It's a guy thing

A worthwhile question is "What causes fatalities in the out doors?" Snakes, bears, and other critters are way down the list. I understand that the honeybee is the number one killer - animal division- in the USA year after year.<br><br>In my experience, doing mountain and desert SAR in the Tucson, AZ area for several years, by far the leading cause of death and injury was falling, followed by drowning, and then cold and heat, which were just about equal and relatively minor. From 1959 to 1985, SAR never handled a case of snakebite, nor can I remember any incidents involving animal life. I believe that there was a death from a black bear (!) some years ago on Mt. Lemmon, so it can happen, but the statistical risk is very small.<br><br>Similarly, there is the perception that sharks are a serious threat to SCUBA divers, when in fact nearly all SCUBA fatalities result from other mechanisms, even at Channel Islands National Park, where we actually did suffer a shark fatality a few years ago.<br><br>Death by animal is just so spectacular that it crowds out the more numerous routine incidents that are actually injuring and killing folks.

#4779 - 03/12/02 09:46 AM Re: It's a guy thing
lostinthewoods Offline
newbie member

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 22
Loc: U.S.A. A.Z. prescott valley
I live in A.Z. I've had two mountain lion encounter three rattlesnake encounter and one interesting encounter with a two lagger. And thats why I believe in carrying a substanchel firearm(.) So go at your one risk. :-)
GOD bless the U.S.

#4780 - 03/12/02 10:24 AM Re: It's a guy thing
johnbaker Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 384
Loc: USA
In our survival bags, we keep a large number of varied and often esoteric items. I find myself frequently raiding my bag to meet unanticipated needs in everyday situations. Exactly what the next need or solution might be, I can't predict. Even in a situation of emergency survival, we are unlikely to use, let alone need, all of our gear & supplies. But we do not leave out things just because they might not be needed. Guns are effective tools of security against depradations by man or beast. They are very comforting when things go bump in the night. Guns are also very helpful in converting uncooperative wildlife into usable nutrition.<br><br>In short, guns are useful & indispensible survival tools. We would be foolhardy to omit them from our planning.<br><br>John <br><br>P.S. Let's not forget that protecting and providing for the needs of ourselves & our families is also traditionally a guy thing.

#4781 - 03/12/02 01:09 PM Re: It's a guy thing

Most of my outdoor experience has been in Arizona and the generally dry portions of southern California. I have had lots of rattlesnake encounters (thirty plus?). I recall using a 357 Magnum to eradicate one diamondback that was real close to the trailer in which our three year old was living - I should have used a shovel which is far more effective if the snake must be killed (it usually doesn't) or rocks...<br> I own and use several firearms, and I have had occasions when their presence was highly reassuring, so they are part of my general kit. But they are not particularly useful, or worth their weight, in nearly all outdoors situations. Carry water, a little bit of rope (a la Sam Gamgee), or first aid gear - it will be more useful.<br><br>Some year ago, fresh from my first lead climb - a very moderate ascent of Weaver's Needle in the Superstitions, I and my buddy rounded a curve in the trail to confront a couple of gentlemen, one of whom had the drop on us with a 45 auto, whose barrel from my perspective was about the size of a highway culvert. I achieved new hieights of graciousness and courtesy in our subsequent discussion, during which I assured this noble fellow that we were only poor but honest mountaineers and had no intentions toward the gold that he sought at Weaver's Needle. Our discussion over, we set some sort of record as we hurtled down the trail toward our car..<br>A few months later the papers carried reports of a fatal encounter between two rival groups withconflicting claims in tha area. The USFS then placed the area off limits to mining claims..<br>I have thought about that encounter many times since, and I don't think that my carrying a firearm would have done me any good in that situation. <br>To carry or not to carry, that is the question.. Usually, in the outdoors, it is better not to carry.

#4782 - 04/07/02 03:29 AM It's a guy thing: survival guns - field tests

>>Guns are also very helpful in converting uncooperative wildlife into usable nutrition.<<<br>Good one, johnbaker! I was rolling!<br><br>I decided to try something to make my combo gun even more useful than it already is. I've got a Baikal over/under break-action 12gauge/.30-06 that has surprisingly good accuracy in the rifle barrel considering they go for just over $400.00. <br><br>The items I purchased to make this firearm even more useful are called cartridge adaptors. One lets you shoot .32ACP (the little pocket pistol rounds) and the other can chamber .30 Carbine. I also got inserts to shoot .410, 28 gauge and 20 gauge out of the 12 gauge barrel.<br><br>Haven't tried the shotgun inserts but they will all be shot through a choked shotgun barrel (as opposed to the rifled barrel that spreads the shot quickly mentioned in another thread) and they supposedly pattern nearly the same as their respective gauge shotguns with approximately the same choke.<br><br>I had mixed results with the .30-06 inserts. The .32ACP fired quite small groups at 25yds. All inside 1 inch. The recoil was negligible, very much like a .22, and it made very little noise. At close ranges out to maybe 50 yards the light 71 grain round would be a great small game round. You could take food size game without blowing the uncooperative wildlife into pieces by using a normal 150grain+ .30-06 round. (never understood the 'red mist' varmint hunting types)<br><br>The .30 Carbine naturally kicked a bit more, perhaps like a .223 rifle, and was louder. Its accuracy was pretty spotty at just 25 yards. I wouldn't use it for a hunting round from my rifle, too much chance of wounding or wasting ammunition in misses. I can still use it to introduce the kids to a gradual stepped progression of recoil and blast from .22 up to full power hunting rounds as they get older and can handle more. Perhaps the .30 Carbine might work really well in another rifle while the .32ACP would be all over the place. Different rifles are finicky that way.<br><br>I'll check back to let everyone know how the shotgun inserts pattern. Incidentally, the same company that makes the inserts to power down high-power rifles also makes inserts to convert shotguns into a large number of different rifle and handgun rounds. Another useful combination if they pattern well from your particular fiream.<br><br>http://www.mcace.com/index.htm

#4783 - 04/07/02 03:43 AM Re: It's a guy thing: survival guns - field tests
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
I've used the inserts before with success. They can be very usefull for training and small game applications, but I question the mini arsenal logistics for unplanned survival scenarios. If you expect to be in an area of big game, an appropriate centerfire will suffice, or a small caliber for small game. You can fall back on snares and deadfalls for smallgame, but it's tough to take moose this way. When I attended Arctic Survival school, the area had been utilized by so many classes the rabbits, squirrels, ptarmigan etc. had long since relocated to Hawaii. Our Ithaca survival rifles and snares were useless :O(. I however, cheated, with big PX chocolate bars and jerky in my Parka's lining. Survival means controlling your situation, not the reverse!

Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (04/07/02 04:26 AM)

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