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#44628 - 07/25/05 03:12 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


when I use the word "terrorist" I always put it in quotes or refer to them as "so-called" because I refuse to give them credit for inflicting terror.

You do not feel the the "rugged westerner who just wants to be left alone" is often, not always, merely living out a stereotype?


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#44629 - 07/25/05 03:13 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two points to you.

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#44630 - 07/25/05 04:03 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
what's the problem with busting the kid with the dime bag... is it not against the law???
If you're stopped in traffic during a DUI road block, and you've got an ILLEGAL firearm, isn't it STILL against the law???


My problem with it is if it is OK to search everyone (or random people, whatever) in the transit system, why not just search people on the streets? Why not search everyone's place of business and their homes too?

I make a point to not do or carry anything illegal. However, if a police officer stopped me and asked if he could search my car, I'd be inclined not to allow it. Why? Because if we don't protect our rights, we won't have them. If the only people who refused a search were guilty of something, simply refusing implies you are guilty.

I sort of consider standing up for your rights like jury duty. If you and all your peers get out of jury duty, then who, exactly, is going to be sitting there? You have to exercise and stand up for your rights, and you need to perform your duties.

Ok, let's get a bit more practical on how things apply to us here on Equipped. I commute about 25 miles each day. I carry a fair amount of stuff. While there is nothing illegal in there, there is a lot of stuff. Lots of stuff that most people don't carry. Stuff that is carefully packed so it can all fit in a small pack. So I can expect in any sort of search where I get "hit", that I'll be spending a fair amount of time, both getting searched, and then I'll have to try to get things arranged such that they fit back in my pack. If this happens with any sort of frequency, I'd either have to reduce what I carry substantially, or find a different way to transit.

Matt, I'm sorry for what you've had to deal with. And while you probably didn't mean it, I would in fact help with the unpleasant chores if I was allowed/asked. IMO it is all part of the price we pay for our freedom.

-john

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#44631 - 07/25/05 04:36 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
brandtb Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 249
Loc: S.E. Pennsylvania
I used to be the local group leader of Amnesty International, and would occasionally go out to give talks to anybody who cared to invite me about what Amnesty does. Once and a while I would mention in passing that I was also in the ACLU and the NRA. Man, you talk about some strange looks...
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Brian Brandt

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#44632 - 07/25/05 05:52 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
It is a prison here in Baghdad. We are surrounded by concrete walls 12 feet tall, razor wire, and armed guards 24/7. All our movments are controlled.

In this environment, you have one of three choices: get searched, get killed, or go home. If things get as bad back home as they are here, everyone will be reduced to the same three choices.

It really doesn't matter much what you are willing to do. If things go wrong, you will have to make a choice. The question is, where will you go? Fortunately, it hasn't become as bad as it is here, yet. So you have more choices, and searches are unlawful only as long as the law does not change. Oops, the law has changed now, hasn't it. The Patriot Act allows things that were not possible before.

If you cannot detect the threat from a distance, then you must treat everyone as a hostile, or die. Unless people are willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of others, this is where we are headed. Is it going to be every man for himself? It already is here, more or less.

Let me put it another way. If Shopping malls across the country were being systematically targeted by terrorists, and no one did anything to secure the remaining malls, do you think people would continue to just come and go like nothing is happening? I would not go back there until I was sure it was safe to do so, and that requires unfortunately that everyone coming and going be searched. There simply is no other way to go about it.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#44633 - 07/25/05 06:13 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
I understand your ideals, and I am willing to fight to preserve our freedoms just the same, but you must understand this; the first time a car bomb goes off that kills people you care for, and you find out that the cops could've searched the vehicle, had every opportunity to do it, but the driver refused and so was sent on his merry way, how will you feel then? How about after the 4th or 5th time it happens? How many people that you care for must die before you decide that being searched is better than being killed? That is the real practical conclusion to this scenario.

Iraqis hate being searched all the time. They have told me this many times over. They endure it day in and day out because they know that everyone that comes here is searched, and this is a safe place for them to be, unlike outside where they don't get searched that much, but people get blown up and shot everyday.

That isn't what is happening back home, thank God. If it ever does, you can be sure that searching people regularly will be a fact of life that you cannot avoid.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#44634 - 07/25/05 06:39 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
wolf Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 329
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
It is a prison here in Baghdad. We are surrounded by concrete walls 12 feet tall, razor wire, and armed guards 24/7. All our movments are controlled. ... this is where we are headed.

You sound as if the fact that we are sliding into a police state doesn't bother you.

Quote:
Oops, the law has changed now, hasn't it.

But the Constitution hasn't.

The 4th amendment of the Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

When the US starts to look like Baghdad we will most certainly no longer be able to brag about being the "Land of the Free".
_________________________
"2+2=4 is not life, but the beginning of death." Dostoyevsky

Bona Na Croin

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#44635 - 07/25/05 10:38 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
My apologies for the misunderstanding. There is a major news organization that refuses to use the word "terrorist" to describe the suicide bombers and I thought that you were doing likewise.

As far as "rugged westerners" go, I'll admit that it is more a state of mind than a geographical phenomenon. This board is proof of that.

Regards, Vince

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#44636 - 07/25/05 12:00 PM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
I figure I'll be seached sooner rather than later - something about a military style patrol pack, obviosly full of "stuff" (my go kit) - should be a fun day, as nothing is illegal, but there is a lot of ODD stuff in there
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#44637 - 07/25/05 12:21 PM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Matt,
My BIGGEST complaint with the so called "Random searches" on the subway is that they won't really work the way they have said they will do them

I object to having to go through BS for what is really (forgetting technical term this AM - excuse me) (edit: "Visual Deterrence") a SHOW of security, which does deter a less determined criminal, but that's not what we are dealing with.

We SHOULD use profiling - start with ALL known factors, hand them to a statistian, and have them work out the models, a good one will find factors you'd never guess at, and will end up discounting ones you think are obvious! If they turn out to be race/religion, so be it

Again, my complaint is when we lose rights for INEFFECTIVE measures. Heck, we can't even keep the homeless out of the subway with their big carts (court rulings) - what's to prevent someone from putting a bomb there? With the way it is right now, all they would have to do is have a guy with NO backpack case the station to see if they are doing stops, and if they are, they go down 7 blocks to the next station, and walk in.

AKA my complaint isn't with the searches so much, as in the fact that they are really useless searches. If I can figure out ways around them with the little bit of thought that I've given the problem, imagine the ways around the problem someone who is dedicating their life (literally) to the problem


Edited by kc2ixe (07/25/05 04:10 PM)
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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