Susan,
Looking at the local Girl Scouts, they seem to be "sell sell sell", while some of the Boy Scout or Explorer troops are fairly Hard Corps. I know they troop I was with (now disbanded for more than 20 years) was fairly hard corps - we used to go out for at least one 2 night campout EVERY month - rain or shine.

I can remember helping evacuate one of the younger guys who horsed around, and managed to get hypotermia one night - we got him home instead of making him stick the second night <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Then there was the time the peninsula we were camping on got cut off by a rising flash flood - THAT was a wet miserable weekend, even for those of us who had a clue - wake up at 2:00am with an evacuation, move to high ground, wait till daylight, and have to hike the LONG way around ( about 6 miles - long hike for kids with full packs), in the pouring rain to get back to where we were parked. Camping when it was well below 0F (the same guy who got the hypothermia the year before was fine on that one - he learned)

Thank goodness no MAJOR injuries - ever. We were always ready for them, but never needed to use the gear

>Our own troop has tended to be more solicitous of the boys'
>comfort than I have wanted. A lot of basic planning,
>preparation, equipping, and skills have been given short
>shrift.

How many of you have heard parents (the ones that never volunteer to come and help) "concerned" about things like camping and hiking in the rain or snow? Good Lord, one of the things we're trying to teach the boys is how to handle themselves in less than ideal conditions!

We try to make sure that the boys are reasonably ready to deal with conditions that may arise, and do it with a positive attitude. On a recent 2 night camping trip, we had fairly high winds, and driving rain on both nights. On the first night, a pair of scouts were the proud owners of an indoor swimming pool, inside their tent, at around 2am. Their rain fly had half blown off, and was shredded by an overhanging branch as it flapped away. Now, there was a lot of commotion, and confusion initially. After looking over the situation from a distance, with another adult on the trip, we decided that since it was warm out, and they had good rain gear, we'd let them deal with their "shelter" issues. We went back to the adult tent, and "listened" for problems, but, basically let them fumble around until they had the situation under control again. They never actually came over to ask for help, which was great, since they took some pride in solving the problem themselves.
There were a couple other boys with some water problems too, who woke with some damp sleeping bags that first night, for various tent setup reasons.

When the weekend was nearing an end, everyone was talking about the flooded tent, and laughing about it. They were all pretty happy that they made it through the weekend, with some jury rigged tarps over 2 tents, and some creative use of a couple poncho's as a rain fly on another. (On the second night, everyone had adapted in some way, and stayed dry.)

When we arrived back at the church, where the parents meet to pick up the boys, they started telling the mom's and dad's about the weekend while moving gear from one vehicle to another. We soon had a couple parents expressing their concern. They seemed to think we should have cancelled the camping until a weekend without any rain. It was all we could do not to laugh. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One of the parents has a son who absolutely loves being outdoors hiking, camping, and fishing. The parents don't. They are the type who will call to see if a trip is being cancelled, because rain is in the forecast. At one point, they talked about maybe taking their son out of the program because they didn't think it was appropriate to go camping, knowing it might rain. I asked one of them if they would rather that their son learn how to handle themselves now, with adults there to coach them, or do they think it would be better to forbid their son from participating? I then said something like: "You could stop him from doing it now, but, your son loves the outdoors. When he's in college, he'll want to do this with his friends, and he'll go out in the woods anyway. We're trying to help him be prepared to handle himself responsibly when he's older, and there aren't adults around to provide the structure and guidance."

(Don't get me wrong, we're not crazy, and wouldn't suggest taking the troop out under severe conditions that would be inapproriate / unsafe.)

How do other folks deal with parents like that? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"Give a boy a tent, he will camp for a night. Teach him how to make his own tent, he will camp forever."

I figure a leader should always bring a spare of the main troop gear (tent/stove/cooking equipment/wood/ect) and keep them in his vehicle. A leader should also bring a spare (or two) sleeping bag. Before the trip at a meeting proper packing should be discussed and reviewed and before the trip if possible a "shakedown" should be done to make sure everyone has the right gear. The packing review meeting should be led both by adults and by the older scouts (if you have them) as younger guys usually listen to older scouts better, but scouts will tend to say what they need to keep comfortable, which is usually less then what a younger scout needs. Also, I like to during the trip do random checks to see if everyone has a good knife, firelighting device, and other supplies on their person. Each scout is also expected to take turns starting the nightly fire (if we have one) by starting it with their own supplies they have on them. I really believe the scout should not have anything handed to them, if they need help they should have an older scout try to help first before going to an adult. The spare gear is there and the boys know it, but it is emergency use only. If they do have to use it they have to sing a song in front of the troop. It helps to teach responsibility, a lot of guys don't like it, but it works. I can say with pride none of the spare gear has been used by the boys in atleast a year, adults I can't say the same.

We've done quite a few "under the stars trips" where the middle/older guys do tarp camping in the winter and no tent camping in the summer, with the younger guys in tents close by, those are always the best trips as the guys learn the most about how to stay safe and comfortable.

How you deal with parents like that? I have no idea - maybe I'll find out when my son gets a bit older.

I'm a city slicker with a country heart. I loved camping (too out of shape now, trying to fix that...) I take my son and daughter on woods/trail walks as often as I can (son can't go too far yet - only 3), just like MY dad did/does with me (Dad is 81 and still gets out in the woods). I found if you took scouts seriously, there was a LOT to learn, but most of the boys didn't - their loss. I guess it was because by the time I got to be age 11 (starting point for Boy Scounts back then - younger was Cubs.Weblows) I was already fairly comfortable in the woods, knew how to sharpen a knife, etc

As for spot checks on gear - I can't remember anyone in the troop spot checking my gear - dad always did it, and I had a checklist that stayed in my pack (my hunting daypack still has a checklist)

I know the "basics" like a knife were expected to be on you, even when you went to a weekly meeting - most of the kids slacked of on the uniform - I guess they found them "dorky". I can still remember some of our requirements. Uniform (Pants, shirt, belt with badges, Neckerchief, hat, socks, Shoes or hiking boots, a PAD and pencil, 2 dimes (pay phones), your knife.

Sigh

Some of the stuff (cooking etc) was a bit hard when I was 11, but by the time I left at 16 due to a lack of time, it was all easy

I don't know. We had one girl in our first aid brigade troop whose mother refused to let her go on a weekend trip in October because she thought it *might* be too cold. This wasn't a camping trip - we were going to be staying in (unheated) bunkhouses, we had several cars, there was a heated lodge nearby, and we were only about 6 miles by road from a small town with a hotel and restaurant. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
But there was no question of dealing with this parent - she made her decision and that was that; no discussion.

I wonder if it would help to show them some stories about people who got lost on a dayhike or a picnic and point out that these people weren't "camping", nor were they expecting bad weather.

I think in some ways, it's the same problem with camping and hiking stores. They want to promote the idea of camping as "fun" and "safe", so they (at least some of them, IMO) tend to downplay "survival" in case it scares away potential customers. Whereas the reality is, it is almost perfectly safe - as long as you know what you're doing and are prepared. It's the people who don't know what they're doing, and aren't prepared, who are most at risk.

A friend of mine grew up next door to an Indian reservation and would sometimes visit the families on "the Rez". One time, she watched as a baby crawled over to an open fire and stuck her hand in the flames - watched by the mother and all the adults. She was horrified that they would sit by and allow this to happen - but they explained that, sooner or later, babies will stick their hands in the fire and it's better for them to do it under adult supervision and get it over with, without doing any lasting harm, than to spend years "protecting" them and risk them doing it when nobody is watching.

Of course, with our current "nanny state" mentality, you'd be hauled up on criminal charges of child abuse if you got caught doing something like that these days.

I think the way you explained it to those parents was about the best thing you could have done, in the circumstances.

Lots to learn from this thread... Question now is when to step in and give assistance to the boys.

I have a 1.5 year old son and I am constantly thinking about his future and doing things like hiking, camping, scouts etc. I would just like to say thanks to all of you guys for theads like this. Although I don't participate in these threads (since I have no knowledge or expertise in this area) I read them religiously and learn quite a bit from them. Just thought I'd say thanks, and keep the great scouting and child-preparedness information coming! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]>I wonder if it would help to show them some stories about people who got lost on a dayhike or a picnic and point out that these people weren't "camping", nor were they expecting bad weather.
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Nice idea! I took a quick look, and found a few examples pretty readily online. There are also plenty of stories right here in ETS. Maybe I can incorporate this concept into a parents meeting for the troop. (I think the boys will benefit by reviewing various situations too. )

I've included a couple links to some of the things I saw with a quick Google search:
http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20040913/NEWS/40914006&SearchID=7319264304531
http://www.theolympian.com/home/specialsections/Outdoors/20030515/6715.shtml
http://www.cboutdoors.com/Dog_Team/crested_butte_dog_team_locates_m.htm
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=3897&messageid=1093367491
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/3957961/detail.html?subid=10101581

There are stories like this every year, and many of them are just people that are "out for a day hike" when the weather, or an injury changes the rules of the game.

A couple of good links from this site:

Around The Campfire\"I find this story terribly sad", posted by Norad45 on 07/02/04 07:28 AM (204.126.146.20):
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595073455,00.html
http://166.70.44.66/2004/Jul/07092004/utah/182134.asp

ETS Home Page - click on "Survival Stories", then " A Question Of Survival - Two wilderness aircraft crashes. The pilots in both survive the crash. But, two very different endings--one lives, the other dies. William Waldock examines the question: Why the difference?"

Thanks to all who have replied so far. I have been a Cub Scout leader for the past year. Our Pack "camps out" twice a year. Families are invited and it is definitely car camping. Pull up the largest SUV you can find and dump as much equipment as you can on the campsite.

At this point the Packs mentallity is to make it as comfortable and fun as possible to encourage the boys to stick with the camping and encourage the families to participate. If the families are involved, then the Pack will grow and prosper.

Being a gearhead, I tend to bring a rather extensive list of equipment. Not all of the equipment leaves the vehicle but I have it in reserve if needed. Last time I brought splitting wedges and a sledge hammer in case someone brought logs instead of firewood. Sure enough, the first hour I was in camp, some one dumped a load of well seasoned logs next to the fire. I broke out the wedges and hammer. After splitting one log, I had a line of scouts wanting to give it a try. Handed the tools and leather gloves over to a dad. Put him in charge of safety. Within no time, all the wood was split. The wedges and hammer were put back in the vehicle to reduce potential missue.

This discussion has made me evaulate what gear I will pack and what I should be packing. I think I will trim back on the gew gaws and concentrate more on safety.