Okay I am headed to Tahoe for Xmas and plan to do a couple day hike while I'm there. I have put together a very small, TSA friendly <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> (since I'm flying there and back) neck lanyard kit but am having trouble deciding which one of two possible fire starters to put on it. I own a small MFS about the size of a AA battery and also own a large army model Swedish Firesteel. The way I see it the advantage of the SF is that it's easy to operate in the cold and with gloves on. Keep in mind that I'm a Texan so I not functioning at my best when I'm up to my a$$ in snow. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The disadvantage of the SF is that there's no "good" tinder built in to it. Yes I can gently scrape some ferro before sparky it (maybe if I'm not to cold for such delicate work). With the MFS I see the advantage being the built in tinder and the disadvantage being it's size. Once since I'm a Texan I will be a little out of my element and part of that is that I don't function as well with thick gloves as you Canadians probably do. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Before anyone asks, or starts thinking I'm off my rocker. I'm not trekking off in to the snow armed only with one of these devices. Whichever device I put on the Lanyard will serve as a backup to the Essential Gear Windmill Stormproof Butane Lighter which I am purchasing just for this occasion to replace the Mini Bic (and somtimes Permanant match) that I normally EDC. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTW ... incase youre curious or have useful opinions/suggestions on my TSA-friendly Lanyard kit... here's what it includes:

2' 55# Black 7 strand paracord on a 5# breakaway lanyard attachment (so I don't hang myself)
Fox 40 Mini Whistle (modified)
Signal Mirror (the exact same mirror that Doug includes in his kit)
Photon II
One of the two fire starters listed above with a TSA-friendly striker.

Brian:

I would go with multiple full sized bics to be on the safe side.

I know firestarters is the main question, but I believe the main consideration should be a portable shelter so that you don't have to depend on snow caves or evergreen tree rooms.

Beyond all that, you could relate those Texas jackrabbit tales out loud while walking out a distress signal in the snow. The heat from that amount of bull crap should allow you to make a rather large signal message as the snow on either side of you will probably melt away to a minimum distance of 3 feet. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

i would take a bic with me even if you do carry the windmill.

I had a hard time trying to light a fire in very wet, damp and cold conditions. Seeing my big chunk of freshly collected resin burn out without lighting match sized sticks really made me thing about my fire equimpent, not the starters but the tinder. Sparking devices are very reliable, but if there ain't no tinder, it ain't gonna light anything. Just saying that you should carry plenty of dry tinder ( in a warm place, like inside you jacket ) with you.

I have a shelter. I just didnt mention it in the post since the post is a question about FIRESTARTERS <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and the shelter is not a part of my lanyard kit. Kinda hard to get a Storm Shelter Instant Pcoket Tent comfortably on a neck lanyard. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also... as for the non-fictional accounts of 25' jack rabbits I do believe I posted a pictures as evidence. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have no problems lighting a wide variety of tinders with only a spark, however it certainly does need to be dry. I can collect dry tinder in almost any conditions with a knife however it is often difficult to do and would be more difficult when Im a cold, wet, tired Texan up to my a$$ in snow so your point is very well taken. Just the same, I could carry a Sparklite, Firesteel, 6 lighters, 200 matches, a bow dril and a flame thrower and also increase my chances of firestarting, but ya have to draw the line somewhere dont ya? For this particular situation I'm drawing it at a lighter and a sparker, but that's just me and I am the first to admit that this is not my area of expertise. I have hiked in the snow plenty of times but still 90% of my outdoor activities take place in subtropical or hot arid climates where hyperthermia is a lot more likely than hypothermia so needless to say that is where my expertise is.

The question remains... small MFS or large Army model Firesteel?

I would carry the firesteel and some tinder. In the mountains out here it is nearly always windy, and usually howling at that. I used to carry an MFS but it didn't take me long to realize that the shavings are pretty worthless after being blown into the next county. In that case carry whatever makes the biggest sparkshower, and from what I gather the firesteel does that. I carry the metalmatch from Countycomm and if your firesteel is similar or superior to that then you will be fine. Sounds like you will have a ball.

Regards, Vince

Brian: Please tell me where you got the mirror. -- Bear

>>Whichever device I put on the Lanyard will serve as a
>>backup to the Essential Gear Windmill Stormproof Butane
>>Lighter which I am purchasing just for this occasion to
>>replace the Mini Bic (and somtimes Permanant match) that I
>>normally EDC.

I googled on "Essential Gear Windmill Stormproof Butane Lighter" and established that it's a piezo-electric lighter:

"Piezo-electric ignition system eliminates the need for batteries or flints which fail when wet. Piezo is a mechanical system which produces a spark when the lighter ignition is pressed. Independent laboratory tests have found the piezo-electric system to be good for over 30,000 ignitions."

Just as an FYI, I have experienced failure of a piezo-electric lighter when it was left out overnight in temperatures of around -30 C. (My brother was building a house in Fort MacMurray, Alberta; I made the mistake of agreeing to spend Christmas with him and his family and ended up helping him install the wiring.) The lighter was one of those long barbeque grill lighters - not an expensive one - that we used to ignite the propane burners to warm up the house while we were working. I ended up having to drive to the local Mac's Milk (convenience store) to pick up a couple of books of paper matches. Experience left me a little bit leery of relying on a piezo-electric lighter in sub-zero temperatures. ("Once bitten, twice shy" sort of thing.)

More expensive p-e lighters may not have this problem, but I would check it out first. (Toss the lighter in the freezer overnight, or for a couple of days, then pull it out and see if it still works first time. If it doesn't, I would not consider replacing a trusty ol' Bic with it for this trip.)

Fwiw, I have left a mini-Bic in the freezer overnight and it's still lit first time within seconds of being picked up.

Thanks for the info. I had thought that the Stormproof was an exception to this somewhat common weakness in these type of lighters. I thought I read that in a review written by Doug but I could be wrong. I have read every single one of Doug's equipment reviews but it has been a while since I read most of them and my memory does have a habit of failing me. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to research this some more. Of course this is also the reason (among others) for my wanting to carry a backup firestarter.

A good point ... that is something I had tried hard to forget about previous trips to the lake. It is usually windier than a West Texas dust storm and a whole lot colder. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Excellent point about the MFS in the wind. That pretty much seals the deal. Thanks guys (even Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) for the assistance. BTW I used to have a metal match and the Firesteel Army model puts out as much or more sparks so it should work out well for me.

>>I had thought that the Stormproof was an exception to this
>>somewhat common weakness in these type of lighters.

And it probably is; I've never owned or used one. It's just that, having been "burned" (if you'll pardon the pun) once, even though it was a cheap barbeque starter type, I'm automatically suspicious of all p-e lighters. However, it's easy enough to check - if it lights successfully after spending a night in your freezer, it should be okay for pretty much any temperatures you'll encounter in Colorado.

Double-checking the reviews is still a good idea, but I'd want to see for myself that *my* lighter was going to work in extreme cold conditions, if possible. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's like you're reading my mind! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That is exactly what I intend to do with it when I receive it. I'll let you know how it goes incase you or anyone else is curious.

Thanks. I'd appreciate the info.

p-e lighters are more vulnerable to spark failure due to dust and debris than to cold. I agree that sub-freezing temperatures may cause problems for butane (not fluid zippo) lighters, but you can generally warm the lighter. However, altitude has caused me more trouble with butane than temperature... and I couldn't always "go lower".
... this may be more Lighter-lore than you want to hear, but if you want to increase your chances of the butane lighter working at altitude you have to bleed out air from the tank and then fill the lighter at roughly the same altitude where it is expected to operate...(roughly the same). This reduces (but doesn't guarantee against) the "vapor lock" or sputtering that we see with many butane lighters.

well in a little over two weeks I'll get to do some altitude testing as well <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not afraid to test it for dirt either ... its supposed to be stormproof and i take that as meaning dust storms too so if it fails I WILL return it <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The new Windmill Stormproof lighter passed the freezer test. It spent the night in the freezer with the flame level set right in the middle between + and -. I took it out of the freezer this morning and immediatly lit it before it had a chance to warm up. It lit right up on the first push of the button. I plan to do this a few more times just to make sure this wasn't just dumb luck. I will also have altitude test results after the holidays are over.

Brian;

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like I may have been unjustly lumping all PE lighters into the same category.