I’m at the beginning of the process of acquiring a gun (maybe several). I have a list and would like some brutal/practical feedback on my choices.
My family hates that I plan to get a gun; this is the main factor in my decisions.

First (and potentially only) is a 12-gage shotgun. For home defense and hunting.
Something like the Winchester 1300, Defender 8 shot or Coastal Marine; Benelli, Remington and Mossberg make similar models but the 1300s have 8 shot capacity. Our hobby is sailing, that’s why I’m considering the Marine version.

Second and Third, I’m not sure in which order.
A.22 automatic pistol. For personal defense. Maybe the Berretta or the Walther. Small, light, easy to conceal and widely available inexpensive ammunition (cheaper to shoot and get good at).
The Thomson/Center G2 Contender Rifle with several different barrels (different calibers). Mostly for hunting, but potentially for sniping and defense.

All thoughts and criticisms appreciated.
Thanks
Michael

Okay I know the mods dont like a lot of gun talk on the board so I will make this short and sweet and tell you only what you need to know to be safe.

1. Shoot a 12ga indoors and you may very well go deaf and even make your ears bleed. The smaller the room the better the chances. If you have children they are even more susceptible to permanent ear damage.

2. I have trouble even stopping rabbits with a 22cal so I wouldn't even consider it for defense. Granted (as Bountyhunter may tell you) we've got real BIG rabbits here in Texas though.

Firearms are a legitimate topic of discussion. That said, Doug and I ( both firearm owners) know to well this subject can turn into a Frankenstein made up of Michael Moore and Col Jeff Cooper body parts. So once more into the breech and posters mind your manners. You have made a few very telling remarks. This is a point of conflict with your family. You don't seem to have a great deal of firearms experience, yet perceive several potential scenarios of need. Retailers LOVE consumers like you. You need to sit down, put your hands on your head and count to 10 on this. I would find a local shooting range, gun club or collector's association. The people involved in this activity are opinionated, prejudiced and oftentimes dead wrong about reality. But, they can help you "kick some tires." A firearm is no less expensive, potentially dangerous and with social liability than a car. Would you buy a corvette right out of high school driver's ed? Where do you live? What prompted this interest? Who will have ( or get) access to these tools? Lets cypher these problems before stirring the Alchemist's pot of ballistics and delivery systems.

Thats's pretty good. You sure you're not a professional writer? Maybe you should be... seriously.

Well said Chris, Thank You, many good points. Don't be in a hurry to spend your money, what's "right" for one "expert" may not be right for you. Get some training with both handgun and shotgun. The training will help you make good choices when buying and make you a better/safer shooter. Take a look at www.frontsight.com. Check with ranges in your area and see if they have classes. Last and not least, you really need to work this out with your family.

You’re absolutely correct. I need to be very careful about this, and I intend to. I don’t plan to buy anything anytime soon. I have a lot to learn. So far my experience consists of gun safety training in the Boy Scouts (20 years ago or so) and a few times out with friends “plinking”. I think it would be a good skill to have in one toolbox, shooting that is. I also think it would be better to learn how to shoot before the “need” arises. The advice I’ve received from gun stores is “Go bigger” always. With the potential for accidents I intend to get only as much fire power as I need. I’m not interested in collecting an arsenal, just having the appropreate tool.
I hope to one day to buy a boat and sail around the world, also, I hope to canoe up through Canada to Hudson Bay. I’ve been told that for both excursions a gun (and the skill to use it is advisable. This is all some time away. What brought my interest to front burner was a recent crime in my neighborhood. A retired widow was home along during the day and a guy broke through her locked screen door, beat her up and robbed her. Now I’m not a 76 year old and I’m usually not home during the day. Also, we keep our doors locked. A few days later another neighbor’s window was broken while she was sleeping, her scream scared away whomever it was. We’ve formed a neighborhood watch but since then several cars and garages have been broken into. I live in Minneapolis Minnesota.
Thanks.

Boat owners, especially on a world cruise face a multitude of laws and regulations in each port of call. That said, your future canoe venture north bring a favourite rifle immediately to mind, The British SMLE .303 . You have a 10 round, rapid fire weapon equally capable of dropping a surly moose , south seas pirate or putting a round into his search light. Ammunition is still fairly common ( especially Canada,) the weapon is robust, built to take abuse and still relatively inexpensive. Mine sits in the closet with the bolt secreted nearby. This business of "go bigger" has merit, but like anything you pay for it on both ends and at some point the returns diminish. The post about a 12 guage's acoustical damage is case in point, along with recoil and controllability. I once went to the range with a prewar, 6" model 10 Smith & Wesson in .38 spl. I had a recent police academy grad next to me. He had some hi capacity shiny thing in the latest wonder round. He looked at my old wheel gun with a sad look while putting on his recoil gloves, yellow shooting glasses and laying out multiple magazines before croutching in some stance stolen from a Pilotti studio. I rapid fired 6 rounds of 200 grain super police from a camp Perry stance before he could bring his 3 dot ,glow in the dark sights to bear. I put them in the torso target's head to. He was not amused. Big isn't much use if you miss big with it. I have an even better home defense system though. My tomcat confronted a maintenance man who forgot to knock once. Now that was messy <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. Have you considered a small, yappy dog? Burglars hate them <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"I once went to the range with a prewar, 6" model 10 Smith & Wesson in .38 spl. I had a recent police academy grad next to me. He had some hi capacity shiny thing in the latest wonder round. He looked at my old wheel gun with a sad look while putting on his recoil gloves, yellow shooting glasses and laying out multiple magazines before croutching in some stance stolen from a Pilotti studio."

I'm glad I don't understand a word of it.... I'll just try to get to work tommorrow without firing a shot - real or imaginary

Living in peace
Martin

Reminds me of my uncle Fred back in WV. He is the stereotypical hillbilly who lives way back in the woods in a house he built himself from wood he cut himself from his land, hunts when he needs food and doesn't worry about hunting seasons and laws, grows all his own food and when he needs some money he will cut some trees and sell some wood. County had a shooting contest, people came from all round, country and city folk, some professional shooters who drive around the country to contests like that. Everyone talked fred into going to the competition even though he had never competed in anything before. He reluctantly agreed drove the old rusty scout a few hours to the town where it was held with an old worn out hunting rifle, took first place and drove home bored because the professional shooters were so easy to beat. It goes to show the best rifle is not the newest, most expensive one you can get it is the one you use and are familiar with.

MichaelJ:

Based on your previous post regarding non-lethal ammunition, don't buy any guns for any purpose but do get a premium grade mink glove to sooth any "badies" that may accost you.

Bountyhunter

MichaelJ:

For the crime concern, invest in alarms.

Klaxon horns at face height with proximity sensors to activate them when the intruder is near have been known to knock people off their feet, cause hearing damage, and with the right frequency cause capillaries in the eyes to hemorrage.

Buying a gun when you are worried about hurting the criminal makes no sense to me.

Bountyhunter

Brian:

You must have missed that news video of the Secret Service agent who turned into the field of fire to protect then President Regan and what a .22 caliber caused his body to react like.

(Almost) Nobody wants to be shot and even those trained to take hits can be laid out with a .22.

bountyhunter

I would not assume that one firearm would be optimal for each of these situations, although you might get some overlap. I would break it down into:

1) Home defense
2) CCW personal defense
3) Open ocean
4) Wilderness

Do you have CCW in Minnesota? Do you have any dangerous 4 legged critters there, or do you just get the run of the mill two legged versions?

-john

While dogs in various sizes can provide deterrent as well as protection, please make sure you consider the inherent responsbility that goes with a dog.

First, you need to be willing to care and provide for this animal. These are social animals so it isn't fair to dump it in the back yard. They need to be cared for, trained, played with, perhaps given a job. It takes time... It is a commitment.

Second, for a larger, more protective dog, you need to protect the dog. An incident where the neighbor's kid gets bit may cost your dog it's life (and get you sued). While dogs have successfully lived with humans for a long time, they are not people and do not understand the world in the same way.

Third, you need to protect the neighbor's kid.

-john

(for small yappy dogs, typically only #1 applies. they tend to get a lot of slack because they don't threaten people)

Aw, this is too hard to do like this. Recreational shooting at a proper facility is so much harmless fun that it justifies itself. Hunting is - words fail me - something that's an aquired taste and often savored like a rare vintage. Self-defense is full of moral and legal implications for each individual to puzzle out - and maybe there is value in discussing that here, provided the various extreme views (any corner of the debate) are throttled back a bit.

Chris K wrote some great advice. Meanwhile, isn't there some ETS member close enough to you to volunteer to take you out for some range time? I enjoy my guns very much, but it's just electrons here - this is cold hard world stuff.

OK, now that I got all that off my chest - you're not gonna be permanently deaf from firing a shotgun inside. Just don't make it a routine practice - good advice in any case! I did that and far worse than that during my career in the US Army (I'm retired) and my hearing is fine. Well, fine for a guy as old as Chris K <grin>.

Close range, a shotgun, hands down. 12 is the universal number, but 20 is OK. Forget anything else for various reasons. If not an afficiondo, it is hard to beat the simplicity of a break-open double barrel, but they still take practice - and remembering little things like automatic safeties. Close second choice is any reputable brand/model pump gun - most boogie men instinctively understand the sound of a pump gun cycling a round into the chamber. Any legal barrel length that handles OK for you in close quarters is fine - again, you can get fancier later. At across-the-room range it doesn't matter anyway. Ammo for indoors is about anything factory loaded that reliably goes "bang" when you pull the trigger. You can get fancier when you know more.

Long range - er, why? That sailing-around-the-world thing? If you're a capable shot at long range, you don't need any advice from any of us. If you're not... it doesn't matter. <shrug> Practice, I guess, and then when you're really good at it, you'll already know whatever you need. But I'll admit that Chris K's Enfield suggestion for Canadian canoeing is good - they work fine across-the-campfire, too.

Pistols take the most practice to master and caliber selection IS more important than in the long guns because generally they have significantly less inherent capability than a long gun to end an incident in time to matter to you. Am I against pistols? Hardly! But I'm an expert with pistols (no sense being falsely modest) and have many to chose from. There can be good arguements for a pistol, but they all include instruction and practice, practice, practice. Usually a poor choice to start out with, so no more specific advice from me on that topic.

Again, Chris K wrote some great advice. Maybe someone knowledgable lurking here lives in your area...?

Go cautiously slow and good luck.

Tom

Sure a .22 can be certainly be lethal and I wouldn't volunteer to get shot by one, but I'd sure rather being shot by a .22 than a .38 or a 9mm. From my perspective, even larger handgun calibers have spotty effectiveness, why push it? And .22 is pushing it about as far as it can go.

You might take a look at the S&W Airweights.

-john

Yah, I bet this is quite a quagmire. Certainly I'd be interesting in hearing more about this.

Obviously the big issue is piracy. Considering they are going to be armed, and probably likely to kill you anyway, I'd want a semi automatic rifle. Considering the other boat may be metal, I'd be inclined to go with a larger caliber like the AR10. Oh, and you probably want a good light on it with a turbohead. I'd want some sort of built in locker to protect it. I'd probably also want a handgun as backup.

The problem of course, that both those types of weapons are probably going to be a major problem when going to port in most places.

A good pump shotgun might be acceptable in more places, but a lot less effective.

Oh, and whatever you get, you'd better be proficient with it.

-john

Unfortunately piracy, like the string of burglaries that prompted Michael's inquiry is a experience we don't schedule on our social calenders. There are many, many precautions we can take for both. Modern pirates are after the boat and it's contents. Shooting it up in a running gun battle is counterproductive. Like any prey animal the energy expended vs potential gain or conversely injury might encourage them to look elsewhere. Unless they board under cover of darkness, there is ample time and distance to discuss matters. Afghan Moujhahadin armed with SMLE's and even ancient flintlocks easily sniped soviet troops armed with the famed, but shorter rang Ak-47. As an example, I was on summer patrol in my ancient 36' MLB and encountered a much faster vessel with a inebriated 'operator' discharging a Ruger Mini 14. He KNEW we were normally unarmed in those days and ignored my hails. Well, we did have 1917 Remington action line throwing rifles. We put a bronze projectile into his flying bridge. He sobered up very quickly. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Over the years I have owned several handguns and long guns. Ruger makes reliable built like a tank handguns in all calibers. You can't go to far wrong with Savage long guns or Remington long guns built on the 700 action or their shotguns. If you want to low ball the long gun consider getting a mil surplus rifle built on the AK type action. That said, no matter what you end up with, you will need to spend lots of time and money learning to use your equipment.

As far as versatility goes, it's hard to beat a 12 Ga. pump shotgun. About the only thing it won't do is conceal easily. (I don't know if that is a consideration for you or not.) This one firearm gives you the capabilty to hunt everything from birds on up to really large bears. Loaded with buckshot, it may be the most fearsome weapon available to the average American "civilian". If you really have to drop the hammer on a bad guy in the house, then the noise will probably be the last thing on your mind. As with any firearm, beware of overpenetration.

The .22 long rifle round will indeed kill the bad guy, but the question is whether or not it will kill him before he sticks his screwdriver in your neck. If you decide to defend yourself with a handgun, then you want a fightstopper. I think the suggestion of a 4-6" .38/.357 revolver is a good starting point. Gunstores are full of outstanding used examples from Smith and Wesson, Ruger, and Colt. Later models of Taurus will also do the job. Practice with the .38 Special, and load the .357 for defense. You can still get the .22--they are fun guns to shoot, and you can never have too much practice.

An excellent resource for firearms safety is the NRA. Stereotypes aside, I have also found the people at local gun/hunt clubs to be well informed and safety minded, and that would be a good place for you and your family to get started. Good luck--I think your choice to defend yourself is the right one.

Regards, Vince

Ah ha .. now maybe you'll believe me about how tuff Texas jack rabbits are. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On a serious note, I am fully aware that a 22 can be lethal. However, I would not choose one for any type of civilian defensive situation such as home or personal protection. CHL holders in Texas arn't even allow to carry anything smaller than a 380 by law.

Michael,

If you are looking to gain some free gun handling time may I suggest you contact the people at Capable Partners. They are a group of Minnesota (mainly Twin Cities) sportsmen (and women!) who assist handicapped hunters/fishers. They are always looking for able-body helpers. Of course, you may have to listen to a lot of hunting/fishing stories. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

p.s. The guy with the deer on the homepage is my dad. He was the president of Capable Partners for many years and is a Minnesota-certified gun safety instructor. Not bad for only having one leg.

I too have shot a variety of firearms indoors both with and without ear protection and so far my hearing is (although no longer perfect) still decent. There is a world of difference between shooting a 223 in a large room and shooting a 12ga in a closet. Or for that matter shooting a 12ga in a large room or in a closet. I'm not disputing what you say by any means, however, I fear that the statement may be a little too vauge to ensure safety in any give home defense situation. I just want to be sure our new friend has all the information he needs to keep his family safe and healthy especially if there are small children in the house. Their ears are far more sensative than ours if my understand of anatomy is correct (and please correct me if it's not).

JohnN:

I am not a boating afficiado and have never been in a private boat on the ocean.

Having said that and having read that all boats recovered from pirates have never had their owners found alive, I have to believe that if you are targeted, you are dead.

The advantage is always with the hunter who has a plan and sticks with it. If you are approached by pirates and you have them standing off while talking to them holding a weapon, you can bet your bottom dollar they will have someone unseen by you lining you up with a sniper rifle.

Since once encountered by pirates you are dead, to my way of thinking, I would want to take as many of them with me as possible. I would rig my boat with secreted explosives (Screw the laws at this point.) which could be detonated with proximity switches after I flick a remote activator. The idea being if they shoot you from a distance before boarding the boat, it shouldn't blow up until they pull along side, board her and start rummaging through her.

A nice little touch would be a short loud verbal jab at them ala the movie "The Mechanic" with Charles Bronson and Jan-Michael Vincent using a tape recorder activated by the same proximity switches used by the explosives with about a 3 second delay.

Bountyhunter

Brian:

Why don't you just admit that every time you shoot at those jack rabbits you end up giving them a bad haircut because you can't hit them in the head. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

JohnN:

My bathrobe gun is a Titan external hammer single action semi-auto .25 because of its weight, but more importantly because my Jennings J22 is not as reliable against jamming. They are both "NOSTRIL GUNS", but more importantly, I know I am going to shoot in the face (Not the forehead, too tough.) if I feel the need arises.

One of my "House guns" is a stainless steel Tauras 3" barrel five-shot snubbie loaded with semi-jacketed hollow points with my preferred aiming point, if necessary, the "badies" crouch. The crouch is not a quick killing zone, but extremely psychologically disabling before even firing. Anyone knowing you are going to shoot them there is more likely to run, try to bargain, or throw down their weapons and beg for mercy. My other house gun is a High Standard Mark IV 9-shot revolver with a 4" barrel in .22 magnum and is a face and forehead (Entrance through forehead is guaranteed, exit is not and the resultant bouncing around inside the skull is a really nice touch.) shooter.

My Springfield Mdl. 1911A1 with 2 hardball loaded magazines sits in the basement near my computers along with my 6 7/8" bull barrel Ruger Government .22 target pistol.

My Jennings J22 sits in the garage among my mechanics tools with 3 loaded magazines of "Ultra" velocity .22 hollow points and is kept very clean to avoid jamming.

I am an NRA certified Marksman 1st Class with a .45 caliber Mdl. 1911A1 which doesn't mean diddily should you become engaged in a fight for life. Unlike one of the posters on this forum, I have no qualms about cutting throats, shooting faces, or destroying the sex life of anyone meaning harm to me or mine.

I also own a gas powered BB pistol capable of 10 fast shots that I can probably blind you with before you can pull out your .454 casull howitzer to do me any harm.

I say please, thank you, excuse me and mean it in my day to day life. I treat others with respect, but stand ready to stand up against the worst of life even if I know I am going to lose the fight. Beyond that, I don't fantasize about gunfights as I would rather bounce tin cans with a .22 than dress up like "Shaft", stick a .45 auto in a shoulder holster and walk around trying to prove how "bad" I am.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Never ... i'll never admit it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shaft carried a Khar 9mm .. atleast in the recent movie remake. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe the original "Shaft" film with Richard Roundtree had a 1911A1 .45 auto. It's been a long time since that movie and I could be wrong, but if neither of them carried a Mdl. 1911A1 .45 auto, they didn't know what they were doing. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />