There has been considearble thoughts on survival firearms. Does anyone know if someone has manufactured a bolt action rifle, light, compact (floatable?) and preferably in a large caliber (say .308) that also would accept a .22LR chamber-barrel? I dont know the term for the smaller barrel inside a big one, but I think you guys get the picture.<br>In my eyes that would be a good survival rifle, able to take both rabbit, squirrels up to moose and bear.<br>Any coments?<br><br>Stefan, Sweden

I won't go so far as to say impossible, but I will say very technically difficult and even more so legally.<br><br>In the US, shoulder arms that are rifled must have a barrel of over 16" in length, as per the National Firearms Act of 1934, or be classed as a Destructive Device, onlong with light cannon, sawn-off shotguns and stocked pistols. So this would entail a 16"+ long chamber and barrel adapter to be legal. The barrell insert would be paper thin, and would have to be both strong enough to take rifling and soft enough to not damage the rifling of the main barrel. Fragile, no mater what it was made out of. Then you'd need something to transfer the energy of the centerfire bolt to a rimfire adapter. (The way swappable rifles and pistols do this is by using either a replaceable hammer or bolt, or by using a selectable position firing pin, like Tompson/Cernter does on the Contender. I've seen one such adapter for .223 at a gun show, but I question it's ability to transmit the energy of the firing pin reliably.)<br><br>Delicate, expensive, bulky and mechanically complex- not good solutions. Your best bet may be to see if you can have someone machine up a brass cartridge body with a rifled steel insert (Talk to your national firearms regualtory agency, the ATF in the US; I'm not sure about the legal issues of the rifled section- they may rule it a barrel!) that forms the first inch or so of barrel and the chamber for one the older .30 cal pistol rounds. The base of this would have the exact profile of the base of the cartrdige the adaptor is for, so that it can be ejected/extraced normally. <br><br>My first thought to which calliber would be the .30 Luger cartridge. This is basically your standard 9x19mm necked to take a tiny 7.62mm bullet in the 80 to 100 grain range, that lists from a 4" pistol barrel as being the 250-300 foot-pound range. The other option is to use the 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev (they are usually intergangable interchangable, except for some early Mauser ammo that is a century old now; the difference has to do with early pressure levels for the Tokarev) which can go up to a 110 gr bullet, and puts out about another 100 foot-pounds, and is a little easier to find if you don't handload. The straight .30 Carbine could work, but the other two are bottleneck cases and can space off of the shoulders, which would be easier to build. 30 Carbine is ballistically in the middle of the Mauser and Lugar cases, but might be the easiest of the three rounds to buy commercially in the US. It's poor rep comes from is lack of ability as a manstopepr, not as a bunnyslayer.<br><br>.32 ACP uses a .309 calliber bullet (the .308 and .30-06 use a .308), but it might be technically possible to do this if you are using a .30-30 or a Chinese/Warsaw Pact manufactured 7.62x39 firearm (both use bulets closer to .310-.311 than to .308) if you are willing to accept reduced accuracy. I would caution strongly against this becuase of the possibilities of a western arms maker producing a 7.62x39 that actually uses a .308 bore, but I don't know about the credability of those rumors (mostly having to do with early Ruger models). IF it can be done, the ammo is almost universally available outside of places former USSR and the PRC for very little money, but it probably the most anmeic of the four that's I've mentioned. I'll also state that my grandfather used to carry a Walther PP in .32 as a kit gun, and shot plenty of small game for the cook pot while he lived in Africa with that gun, so for small meat it should be fine.<br><br>In any case, you MAY be able to get sub-calliber adaptors that do this commerically. I know they used to be made, I've seen ads for them that date back 20, 30 years, but nothing more recent than a magazine from the early 80s. If you scrounge hard enough, you may be able to find a used one, but I don't know if they ever worked as well as advertised or if a used one would even be safe.<br><br>Your other options might include playing with handloads, if that bug has bitten you, but do so at your own risk. (If I may, I suggest the military steel cases for that experiment, even if they are only a few hundredths of the percent point stronger, they usually have thicker case walls and thus less internal volume, so tehy MIGHT be a TINY bit safer.) Or you could go hog wild and buy small capacity cases that are nothing more than cartridge machined from a block of brass that has the right external dimensions and a tiny capacity equal to a pistol cartridge. But there you are talking about a maybe a $100 for a cartridge case.

OK, I'm an idiot.<br><br>I found a source for the adapters not ten miuntes after I posted. I question teh accuracy, and I still have legal reservations, but....<br><br>http://www.mcace.com/rifleinserts.html<br><br>

If you are looking for a high powered/low powered rifle, and are willing to surrender the bolt action and floating, consider an ar-15 or clone. Numerous manufacturers make .22LR conversion kits, normally to make live fire practice much cheaper. It could also work in a survival situation. Ar-15 types also have lots of spares and accessories available, and come in many different models allowing you to customize to your particular needs.

Why not just get a Tompson Contender carbine? You can get 16" barrels in .22LR all the way up to .45-70. Those two barrels should take care of what needs done. Changing barrles involes 5 minutes and a screwdriver. The Tompson Encore will handle higher pressures.....308, .30-06, etc. but I am not sure if they offer a .22LR in the Encore but I can't imagine why not. Both guns can be had in pistol or rifle configuration, and can be switched back and forth by adding or removing the rifle stock. Just remember, if you have a rifle stock on the firearm, it MUST have a 16" or longer barrel to be legal.

Stefan,<br><br>New England Firearms makes a rifle they call the "Survivor." This is a single shot, break-open rifle chambered in either .223 or .308. While I don't own one, I have shot the one my buddy owns (a .308) on several occasions. Nice rifle, very accurate. The trigger isn't bad, isn't good. With practice, reloading is pretty quick (it has an ejector, the one on my buddies is powerful, a freshly fired .308 case bouncing off the forehead is not fun, so be carefull.)<br><br> I used to own a .32ACP chamber adaptor for my single shot .30-30. It worked fine and was fairly accurate. Little thing, easy to lose, though (which is why I USED to own one.) Someone still makes them. If you insist on being able to shot .22LR's through your gun, you'd probably be better off with a .223. <br><br>Positive bouancy aftermarket synthetic stocks are available if you look hard enough. Not cheaply, though.<br><br>Andy

My 2 cents worth:<br><br>I think that the entire set of attributes would be very difficult to come up with unless you have a substantial amount of money to invest. The barrel liner issue is a bit tricky in a .308 - your working outside diameter will be 0.300" (minus), as the top of lands are that diameter. The liner can be made strong enough, but the firing pin position has only awkward solutions and the liner itself would be extremly fragile outside the rifle barrel. A larger bore, like a .358, would help, but there are still issues.<br><br>I think it depends on your locale and the fauna that inhabits it. My inclination would be to drop the .22 rimfire. My solution on extended trips in remote northern areas has been reduced loads with cast bullets and they have been superb for taking small game. These could be done with conventional jacketed bullets as well, although the loading data is more difficult to come by. However, the bulk of reduced loads is equal to the bulk of full-power loads, and the weight is nearly identical as well. Also, these are considerably more powerful than 22 rimfire - and significantly louder.<br><br>If the big game rifle must be in a bolt action and you are adamant about also wanting .22 rimfire, is a .22 pistol an option for you? That's a lot simpler.<br><br>As for the rifle itself, I think a "Scout Rifle" would be a pretty good choice, as would something like a Remington M7 or similar rifles, although it will be difficult to get one to float. Savage makes a nifty inexpensive Scout rifle, or there is the (expensive) Steyr. It looks like the Savage is a lot of rifle for the money and like the Steyr is a real sweetie. It's not hard for me to switch to the extended eye relief 'scope and back, but it IS a shock the first time you look through one. I have made 3 Scout rifles so far and find the concept quite good - my boys won't use anything else most of the time. Ironically, the Scout rifles I have made are 6.5x55 M96 Swedish Mausers <grin>. Very compact, very accurate, very effective, and so-so for weight by your criteria (one has synthetic stock and it's noticably lighter). Both Leupold and Burris "Scout Scopes", and I would give the Burris the nod over the Leupold, personally, with apologies to Col. Cooper. Ashley mounts and eventually all will have ghost ring sights as well. Smarter to buy the Ashley sights, I guess, but I'm machining my own instead.<br><br>Otherwise, I'd second the T-C suggestions. Seems like that could be adapted to fit most of what you stipulate except "bolt action" without spending a lot of money for customizing.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

For just ONE gun? It all comes down to the .22, but in which gun? There ain't any lack of choices. The 10/22 is everywhere, the Marlin 39 breaks in half, etc.<br>It ain't no M-16, ain't no twelve-gauge.<br>But you can carry alot of ca'tridges

Savage makes a over and under 12 gauge shotgun and .223 combination break open rifle. I have modified mine in the following manner: Replace firing pin springs with springs from wollfe, next cut the barrels down to 18 inches as the shortest lenght for a shotgun is 18 inches albeit 16 inches is the shortest lenght for a rifle. Thus 18 is the shortest you should have the barrel reduced. Next rim rock industries makes a kevlar/phenolic stock. Now add a .22 long rifle subcaliber insert into the .223 barrel and add an eagle stock pack for spare 12 gauge slugs, .223 HP and .22 hollow points and a small vial of CLP as the number or rounds you have on you won't warrant a need for cleaning in a survival situation (short term hopefully). I add to this a nylon and neoprene web sling made by butler creek and adjustable sights from MMC Corp. A piece of electrical tape or condom over the muzzle will keep out the cooties and dirt till it's needed ...........<br><br>BTW the reason I change the firing pin springs is based on years of using my Savage 24V and it is done to prevent pin breakage. Just my suggestion for a survival long gun as the slugs will stop large dangerous game such as polar bear or man and the .223 will not destroytoo much meat on large game such as deer and the .22 Long rifle will keep ya in all the bunny burgers ya can find............. Mine has also been refinished in a Titanium Nitride finish that salt water won't even scratch ......so far. <br><br>Stay Safe .........<br><br>

How much did the conversion cost you? I like .30-30 better for deer andbear, but this sounds like a good way to go.

The savage 24V is pretty basic and solid .....not sure of current price but mine has been tinkered with over the years and I'd be afraid to add it all up but I'd not be suprised to find all in all I have about 500 invested in accessories and improvements....<br><br>, the subcaliber insert for .22 long rifle and I also have one in .22 magnum were 30$ apeice if my memory is correct. <br><br> The 24V comes in 20 gauge and .22LR or 12 and .223 and other combinations. Accurate, simple and with slugs to .22 shot the possibilities are endless IMHO for game getting and self defense from dangerous game, 2 and 4 legged................<br><br>Stay Safe !

what do your groups look like at 100yds with an 18" barrel?<br> this sounds like a great combo.

I have very good groups using green tip IMI 69 grain .223 and the BRI sabot 12 gauge slugs , 1 oz. The scope base is on the barrel so play in the action is moot. .22 CCI mini-mags are the most accurate but have chosen the 40 grain solid remington rounds for solid hits on small game that won't damage meat as much as a stinger or other hollowpoint may.....<br><br><br>I think the key point is that this is a survival weapon I use for food gathering versus self defense other than dangerous game. <br><br> I have made one inch groups from a bench using a 6-18X tasco scope that does double duty as a spotting scope, binoc's etc etc. On the scope I use a rubber band cut from an auto inner tube versus a set of scope covers to protect the optics as the rubber can be used for a sling spear etc if needed.<br><br><br>The rig is stored in my vehicle kit disassembled in a bag I made from an old filson tin cloth jacket. <br><br>Hope this helps with some ideas..........<br><br>Stay Safe !

I'm familiar with it- I sold one in .30-30/12ga my last semester of college for books. Miss that gun. :)<br><br>My primary quesiont on cost was the TiN coating- I don't know of many places that do that custom, so I'm guessing it's expensive as h***. Although, a black and gold Savage would be pretty cool looking. I was going to ask also how much it had cost to relocate the front sight, but since you mentioned you'd gone with the scope mount, did you keep the front sight at all?<br><br>Now that I've found a source for pistol cartridge adaptors in .30-30, I might have to see if I can find another one and set it up as a survival/camp gun.

Checkmate refinishing in Florida did the refinish. The finished product is "Not" gold in any part of the TiNi finish. The first phase does cover the metal in a gold color then the black nitride gives that a flat black parkerized look.<br><br>The front sight and rear stay attached and the scope mounts have QD levers to remove as needed and re-attach with solid zero retained. Thus "if" I damage the optics I have the redundancy of iron sights as a backup to the tasco glass........<br><br>The cost of the TiNi finish is about 100-150 $ as I remember it. I believe Robar also does that work if your on that side of the CONUS (AZ) versus Florida and want him to do it. I have had both do work for me and they are either quite good at what they do........<br><br>The reason I chose .223 and 12 gauge was the availability of those rounds and the brass that's around and I had a Lyman Tong Tool for reloading the .223 if needed in the field. A lee handloader works just as well for that purpose IMHO.<br><br>The .22 LR and Mag insert's are just iceing on the cake as I can pack a brick of these in my larger vehicle kit with the combonation 24V and eat well till I return to normal dig's......<br><br>Stay Safe , Hope I helped and didn't confuse or misinform........

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Sounds good. Just one caution for others contemplating a similar rig: Older Savage M24s with .223 Rem bbls have inappropriately slow twists (I have one) - they will not even handle 55gr BT very accurately, and are happier with 50 gr or lighter flat base. IIRC, they used the same .224 bbl for everything, just changing chambering - so it had a "target twist" for .222 Rem - or something like that. Either 1-12" or 1-14"; been a long time since I verified it. Way too slow, in any event.<br><br>OTOH, current production Savages in .223 appear to have 1-9" twist, so it is not surprising that yours prefers 69gr BT ammo. That's an extremely fast twist rate for .22 lr (besides the diameter mis-match) - have you tried the Aguila 60gr specialty .22RF? That might be just the ticket.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

Good info, not yet on the mex ammo but will give it a look sounds like meat in the pot for sure...............<br><br>Thanks and Stay Safe !

Go here http://www.aguilaammo.com/rimfire.htm and click on specifications link near the bottom of the page. 60gr, 950fps mv. Seems to run around $29/brick and it takes a faster than normal twist to stabilize it. I'm confident that 1-9" is more than fast enough twist rate.<br><br>FWIW, I think I would prefer a M24 in 22RF/20gauge. I used to own one in 22/410 and I have a very nice "deluxe" one in .223/20, albeit with too slow a .223 twist for my taste (older model). The 410 was not exciting on grouse. The .223/20 is extremely good with shotshells and if the twist rate was like the current version, I would probably be tempted to have a RemChoke installed. As-is, its the most accurate slug-shooter I own, in any gauge or action type. If I used it more, I would probably very carefully open up the modified choke a little bit, but it's pretty good as-is, with even patterns thrown to where it points.<br><br>But it's fairly heavy and longer than it needs to be. The old "Camper Model" in 22RF/20ga was ideal as far as I am concerned - wish I had one. Only "drawback" that I recall to the Camper Model was that it was chambered 2 3/4" only, but I may be wrong about that.<br><br>20ga is good enough for anything - not as good as 12, perhaps, but good enough for wilderness survival use. Toss in a few 3" shells if one is paranoid. And the ammo is lighter and less bulky just enough to maybe matter. One last thought about the M24 - it is not easy for the average do-it-yourselfer to properly rig it for a sling. Trivial for some, but not for most.<br><br>I just cannot get excited about the 30-30/12 combo, but guns are worse than knives for personal preference. For me, if I could only carry one long-gun, it would be a centerfire bolt-action. Having said that, when the family and I are in uncertain areas for purely recreational purposes, a proper handgun is de-rigour for the adults unless bears are possible, in which case Rem 870 12 gauges with short barrels and slings are carried by two of us. Are those survival guns? You bet! Which would I prefer for long-term situations? The pistols, for certain. Cannot carry enough shotgun ammo for a long haul. We are proficient enough with the (large caliber) pistols to get the job done on any size game found in NA. YMMV; these are strictly my opinions. <br><br>As a deliberate choice for a "wilderness survival" long gun, the M24 is mighty alluring, even to me with my predjudices.<br><br>I have seen some of the craziest things used hard for long-term stuff by grizzled and tough folks in tough places, so I guess it's like anything else - make what you've got do the job for you. (One end of the spectrum was a tiny 22lr Beretta semi-auto pistol, and that prospector was fat and sassy everytime I tracked him down - it kept him in meat. The most common thing I saw was beat-up M94 "Trapper" models in 30-30 - these were real "Winchesters", but I suppose the current version or similar Marlins are being carried these days as well. The biggest wierd one I personally saw was a .375H&H flanged double that probably was worth more than everything else the guy owned, and he endlessly reloaded the same box of brass with self-cast bullets and an old Lyman-type tool. Primers, powder, lead, and a box of brass. He reloaded 18 when he was down to 2 cartridges.)<br><br>And that's all I've got to say on this thread!<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom