There has been considearble thoughts on survival firearms. Does anyone know if someone has manufactured a bolt action rifle, light, compact (floatable?) and preferably in a large caliber (say .308) that also would accept a .22LR chamber-barrel? I dont know the term for the smaller barrel inside a big one, but I think you guys get the picture.<br>In my eyes that would be a good survival rifle, able to take both rabbit, squirrels up to moose and bear.<br>Any coments?<br><br>Stefan, Sweden

I won't go so far as to say impossible, but I will say very technically difficult and even more so legally.<br><br>In the US, shoulder arms that are rifled must have a barrel of over 16" in length, as per the National Firearms Act of 1934, or be classed as a Destructive Device, onlong with light cannon, sawn-off shotguns and stocked pistols. So this would entail a 16"+ long chamber and barrel adapter to be legal. The barrell insert would be paper thin, and would have to be both strong enough to take rifling and soft enough to not damage the rifling of the main barrel. Fragile, no mater what it was made out of. Then you'd need something to transfer the energy of the centerfire bolt to a rimfire adapter. (The way swappable rifles and pistols do this is by using either a replaceable hammer or bolt, or by using a selectable position firing pin, like Tompson/Cernter does on the Contender. I've seen one such adapter for .223 at a gun show, but I question it's ability to transmit the energy of the firing pin reliably.)<br><br>Delicate, expensive, bulky and mechanically complex- not good solutions. Your best bet may be to see if you can have someone machine up a brass cartridge body with a rifled steel insert (Talk to your national firearms regualtory agency, the ATF in the US; I'm not sure about the legal issues of the rifled section- they may rule it a barrel!) that forms the first inch or so of barrel and the chamber for one the older .30 cal pistol rounds. The base of this would have the exact profile of the base of the cartrdige the adaptor is for, so that it can be ejected/extraced normally. <br><br>My first thought to which calliber would be the .30 Luger cartridge. This is basically your standard 9x19mm necked to take a tiny 7.62mm bullet in the 80 to 100 grain range, that lists from a 4" pistol barrel as being the 250-300 foot-pound range. The other option is to use the 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev (they are usually intergangable interchangable, except for some early Mauser ammo that is a century old now; the difference has to do with early pressure levels for the Tokarev) which can go up to a 110 gr bullet, and puts out about another 100 foot-pounds, and is a little easier to find if you don't handload. The straight .30 Carbine could work, but the other two are bottleneck cases and can space off of the shoulders, which would be easier to build. 30 Carbine is ballistically in the middle of the Mauser and Lugar cases, but might be the easiest of the three rounds to buy commercially in the US. It's poor rep comes from is lack of ability as a manstopepr, not as a bunnyslayer.<br><br>.32 ACP uses a .309 calliber bullet (the .308 and .30-06 use a .308), but it might be technically possible to do this if you are using a .30-30 or a Chinese/Warsaw Pact manufactured 7.62x39 firearm (both use bulets closer to .310-.311 than to .308) if you are willing to accept reduced accuracy. I would caution strongly against this becuase of the possibilities of a western arms maker producing a 7.62x39 that actually uses a .308 bore, but I don't know about the credability of those rumors (mostly having to do with early Ruger models). IF it can be done, the ammo is almost universally available outside of places former USSR and the PRC for very little money, but it probably the most anmeic of the four that's I've mentioned. I'll also state that my grandfather used to carry a Walther PP in .32 as a kit gun, and shot plenty of small game for the cook pot while he lived in Africa with that gun, so for small meat it should be fine.<br><br>In any case, you MAY be able to get sub-calliber adaptors that do this commerically. I know they used to be made, I've seen ads for them that date back 20, 30 years, but nothing more recent than a magazine from the early 80s. If you scrounge hard enough, you may be able to find a used one, but I don't know if they ever worked as well as advertised or if a used one would even be safe.<br><br>Your other options might include playing with handloads, if that bug has bitten you, but do so at your own risk. (If I may, I suggest the military steel cases for that experiment, even if they are only a few hundredths of the percent point stronger, they usually have thicker case walls and thus less internal volume, so tehy MIGHT be a TINY bit safer.) Or you could go hog wild and buy small capacity cases that are nothing more than cartridge machined from a block of brass that has the right external dimensions and a tiny capacity equal to a pistol cartridge. But there you are talking about a maybe a $100 for a cartridge case.

OK, I'm an idiot.<br><br>I found a source for the adapters not ten miuntes after I posted. I question teh accuracy, and I still have legal reservations, but....<br><br>http://www.mcace.com/rifleinserts.html<br><br>

If you are looking for a high powered/low powered rifle, and are willing to surrender the bolt action and floating, consider an ar-15 or clone. Numerous manufacturers make .22LR conversion kits, normally to make live fire practice much cheaper. It could also work in a survival situation. Ar-15 types also have lots of spares and accessories available, and come in many different models allowing you to customize to your particular needs.

Why not just get a Tompson Contender carbine? You can get 16" barrels in .22LR all the way up to .45-70. Those two barrels should take care of what needs done. Changing barrles involes 5 minutes and a screwdriver. The Tompson Encore will handle higher pressures.....308, .30-06, etc. but I am not sure if they offer a .22LR in the Encore but I can't imagine why not. Both guns can be had in pistol or rifle configuration, and can be switched back and forth by adding or removing the rifle stock. Just remember, if you have a rifle stock on the firearm, it MUST have a 16" or longer barrel to be legal.

Stefan,<br><br>New England Firearms makes a rifle they call the "Survivor." This is a single shot, break-open rifle chambered in either .223 or .308. While I don't own one, I have shot the one my buddy owns (a .308) on several occasions. Nice rifle, very accurate. The trigger isn't bad, isn't good. With practice, reloading is pretty quick (it has an ejector, the one on my buddies is powerful, a freshly fired .308 case bouncing off the forehead is not fun, so be carefull.)<br><br> I used to own a .32ACP chamber adaptor for my single shot .30-30. It worked fine and was fairly accurate. Little thing, easy to lose, though (which is why I USED to own one.) Someone still makes them. If you insist on being able to shot .22LR's through your gun, you'd probably be better off with a .223. <br><br>Positive bouancy aftermarket synthetic stocks are available if you look hard enough. Not cheaply, though.<br><br>Andy

My 2 cents worth:<br><br>I think that the entire set of attributes would be very difficult to come up with unless you have a substantial amount of money to invest. The barrel liner issue is a bit tricky in a .308 - your working outside diameter will be 0.300" (minus), as the top of lands are that diameter. The liner can be made strong enough, but the firing pin position has only awkward solutions and the liner itself would be extremly fragile outside the rifle barrel. A larger bore, like a .358, would help, but there are still issues.<br><br>I think it depends on your locale and the fauna that inhabits it. My inclination would be to drop the .22 rimfire. My solution on extended trips in remote northern areas has been reduced loads with cast bullets and they have been superb for taking small game. These could be done with conventional jacketed bullets as well, although the loading data is more difficult to come by. However, the bulk of reduced loads is equal to the bulk of full-power loads, and the weight is nearly identical as well. Also, these are considerably more powerful than 22 rimfire - and significantly louder.<br><br>If the big game rifle must be in a bolt action and you are adamant about also wanting .22 rimfire, is a .22 pistol an option for you? That's a lot simpler.<br><br>As for the rifle itself, I think a "Scout Rifle" would be a pretty good choice, as would something like a Remington M7 or similar rifles, although it will be difficult to get one to float. Savage makes a nifty inexpensive Scout rifle, or there is the (expensive) Steyr. It looks like the Savage is a lot of rifle for the money and like the Steyr is a real sweetie. It's not hard for me to switch to the extended eye relief 'scope and back, but it IS a shock the first time you look through one. I have made 3 Scout rifles so far and find the concept quite good - my boys won't use anything else most of the time. Ironically, the Scout rifles I have made are 6.5x55 M96 Swedish Mausers <grin>. Very compact, very accurate, very effective, and so-so for weight by your criteria (one has synthetic stock and it's noticably lighter). Both Leupold and Burris "Scout Scopes", and I would give the Burris the nod over the Leupold, personally, with apologies to Col. Cooper. Ashley mounts and eventually all will have ghost ring sights as well. Smarter to buy the Ashley sights, I guess, but I'm machining my own instead.<br><br>Otherwise, I'd second the T-C suggestions. Seems like that could be adapted to fit most of what you stipulate except "bolt action" without spending a lot of money for customizing.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

For just ONE gun? It all comes down to the .22, but in which gun? There ain't any lack of choices. The 10/22 is everywhere, the Marlin 39 breaks in half, etc.<br>It ain't no M-16, ain't no twelve-gauge.<br>But you can carry alot of ca'tridges

Savage makes a over and under 12 gauge shotgun and .223 combination break open rifle. I have modified mine in the following manner: Replace firing pin springs with springs from wollfe, next cut the barrels down to 18 inches as the shortest lenght for a shotgun is 18 inches albeit 16 inches is the shortest lenght for a rifle. Thus 18 is the shortest you should have the barrel reduced. Next rim rock industries makes a kevlar/phenolic stock. Now add a .22 long rifle subcaliber insert into the .223 barrel and add an eagle stock pack for spare 12 gauge slugs, .223 HP and .22 hollow points and a small vial of CLP as the number or rounds you have on you won't warrant a need for cleaning in a survival situation (short term hopefully). I add to this a nylon and neoprene web sling made by butler creek and adjustable sights from MMC Corp. A piece of electrical tape or condom over the muzzle will keep out the cooties and dirt till it's needed ...........<br><br>BTW the reason I change the firing pin springs is based on years of using my Savage 24V and it is done to prevent pin breakage. Just my suggestion for a survival long gun as the slugs will stop large dangerous game such as polar bear or man and the .223 will not destroytoo much meat on large game such as deer and the .22 Long rifle will keep ya in all the bunny burgers ya can find............. Mine has also been refinished in a Titanium Nitride finish that salt water won't even scratch ......so far. <br><br>Stay Safe .........<br><br>

How much did the conversion cost you? I like .30-30 better for deer andbear, but this sounds like a good way to go.