I'm one of those nuts that actually has a knife in the Altoids-size tin.

Not that I don't carry another as well whenever possible (right now I'm working in a "secured" building where it's not). As a matter of fact, in a mall knife store recently, a young lady showing me a knife asked if I carried one. I thought I had three on my person (including the one in the PSK). An actual inventory turned up five, two I had forgotten about...

For years the one that rode in my Altoids-size (Windmill lighter) tin was the "orignal" size Gerber LST, which just fits the long way without having to go diagonal (the Gerber LST Ultralight is much smaller still, but barely usable).



That's now been replaced- the Fallkniven U2 is, IMHO, a much better knife, and is virtually the same size.. even a hair shorter, and a bit lighter. Certainly more solid, and the steel is impressive.



Of course, it costs quite a bit more ($65 street vs $15 street), but I've never been able to budget knives or books...



So far, it's an impressive little blade. Those looking for a tiny, lightweight, last-ditch backup knife, one for a small kit, or an ultralight-minimalist knife for when you're counting every ounce, might want to consider it.

That Fallkniven U2 looks nice.

This is what I keep in my tin:


I paid $13.00 at One Stop Knife Shop. It is the third item from the top.

Fits in an Altoid tin with no problem.

Interesting knife, but not a good illustration.

What with the colored disk "background", my first impression was that you had managed to stock your tin with a miniature pizza cutter. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I keep a SOG 3" 50/50 blade from a PowerLock in mine. Thinkin about adding the Powerlock saw too. $7ea from SOG direct. I used to keep a SAK Tinkerer but that was before I swore off all non-locking knives.

<img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> How dare you insult my tactical pizza cutter survival tool! <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Don't you know the survival value that pizza has? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You've got your carbs, dairy group, vegetable group, pepperoni group. . .

Yeah, its a bad picture, but I don't have a digital camera so I just grabbed it off the vendor's website.

I've got two PCs, two laptops, and two iPaqs, but have never gotten around to picking up a digicam. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

CHEERS!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

How about the SOG Micron?
http://www.sogknives.com/Folding/Micron/micron.htm

After more browsing I think the E-Clips looks better.

I had the U2 until my G/F liberated it. It is a superb blade for the size. It is incredibly sharp and holds that edge, sparks well for those who don't believe in hacksaw blades and is very corrosion resistant. Fallkniven made a limited run of 100 F1s in this new steel as a test. Sadly, I couldn't afford one <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Renegades Rebels all of yaw!


A knife in the Psk don't tell Doug.


I am laughing here.

Actually I have toyed with the idea my self and made it work but I have to sacrifices other stuff, so I developed a urban Psk and a standard wilderness Psk.
The problem I had was the size of the tin. There are allot of resourceful people to bad we can find someone who will custom make our tin for us preferably out of aluminum or titanium. If anyone has any ideas please let everyone know.

I actually want to add a small knife to Cody Lundin style kit. I am looking at a Spyderco Jester, plain edge. I gave one to my wife and at first she didnt like it, and I thought she might give it to me. But she is now convinced of it usefullness and wont give it back!!

Garrett

What about making a custom container out of Kydex? I've never messed with Kydex myself, but from what I've seen it is easy to work with, and material is cheap. Then you can make your container in any shape or size you want. What do you guys think?


Robert

Can you post a picture of the two knives together, in profile? I would like to get a sense for the the thickness of these knives.


Robert

I have never thought of kydex but you are right you could do that, however you can not cook in it. That would work in a Desert environment.

mcse,
Since the original post has to do with Altoids sized tins I thought you were looking to make a container similar in size. I didn't know you were looking for something big enough to cook in. In fact, when I first read your post quoted above I had a vision of somebody holding an Altoids tin over a fire and trying to cook that squirrel they trapped. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Robert

Hmm... well, if it's a "tactical" pizza cutter, I have to assume that it's main purpose is defense against feral pizzas. Rabid feral pizzas.

No offense intended, it just looks a little, er, small for defending yourself against the rabid feral pizzas that attack people on jogging trails....

There in lies the rub, I like the size of the altoids tin but, I want to a bigger size to cook in, also individual parts need more room.

I have seen one in action and its very effective against small Personal Pan Pizzas from Pizza hut however, if confronted with a large pizza with everything on it, your best best it to turn tail and run. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's also marginally effective agaist french bread pizzas with proper training.

I'd say as far as cooking goes, IMO the Altoids tin would probably be effective for heating a little water to warm you up when youre cold but not much else.

Conventional wisdom suggests that you bring some HD aluminum foil to make a cooking pot with. I've never tried that, it seems rather awkward. Has anybody tried it?

The proper spelling of the word is "y'all". It is a contraction and is short for "you all". Someone [mcse] is obviously not from Texas. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I have tried it on more than one occasion. It is a skill I certainly lack. 4 out 5 HD foil cooking containers of mine spring a leak. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You also (if doing anything more than heating a little water) have to be very careful to have enough heat on the foil to cook and/or boil but not so much that you burn through the foil. It's a delicate balance. It's something Im no good at but I keep practicing every other weekend when I'm camping. Until I master it (if ever) it's gonna have to be MP1 tabs for purification and the PSK tin for heating a little water if needed. Not too concerned about food but if Im cookin squirrel I skewer him I suppose.

I have tried it, its unreliable the problem is you have to unfold it and cook in it and it does not work every time. You risk tearing holes in the tinfoil because we pack it so tight in the psk.

Ooooh a new knive from SOG. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That Micron is cool and the price is certainly cool too! It looks like a fixed blade but they have it listed as a folder. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Couldn't find that one.

Okay, Okay

I stand corrected.

Thanks Brian, mcse, that's kind of how I thought it would go with Aluminum Foil. Have you tried the thicker stuff, that they make disposable cookie trays with? I bought a couple of those cookie trays, I'm going to cut off the edge so I have a plain sheet, and I'll see how small it folds up.

Hey...good idea! I'll buy a couple on the way home today and try it this weekend.

there is afoil tray supplied with the BCB go-pack. After repeated folding a small hole appeared. But suprisingly it didn't leaked wenn i filed it again ! Guess the surface tention of the water was strong enough to "patch" small "leaks".

The confusion comes from the fact that in English, the plural of "you" is "you". This is clearly inadequate and confusing, and virtually everyone more than 150 miles from Buckingham Palace recognizes that it is (those who live within 150 miles of Buckingham Palace seem mostly to relish ANY obfuscation the language causes).

In southern states, this has resulted in "you all" and "y'all", whereas in parts of the rust belt the proper form is "all youse", often contracted to just "youse".

Both forms are, of course, painful to those who speak the "pure" version of the language. Most of those who are stuck without a decent plural form of the word seem to feel that it serves them right.

It's even worse than that, PL. It seems that in some parts of the south, "y'all" is singular, resulting in the plural form "all y'all".

And it gets worse...when I was a teen I met some girls from Pittsburgh whose version of of the plural was "y'uns."

Getting back on topic, y'all.

I bought one of those little Gerber knives before I started collecting survival stuff. I keep it on my keychain for trimming the bite marks on my dog's frisbees. My wife liked it, so I got her one two. I lost it for awhile, and bought a replacement, and when I found it again I put it in my PSK as a backup knife. So I've got 3 now. It's going to be hard to justify getting a 4th little knife, but if it's better, well...

What's the groove for just inside the edge?

Brian:

If it was a fixed blade, they would not have a fingernail groove on the blade.

Man!, you just gotta drink more coffee before you go onliine. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Y'all, or whatever:

Water in aluminum foil should keep the foil cool enough so that it does not melt, because the water needs 212 degrees F to boil, and aluminum foil needs a bit more than that to melt. I am assuming you are using a regular fire and not an acytelene torch which would definitely melt the area it hits as the heat gain will be greater and faster than the heat loss capability of the water.

I have heard, and seem to recall having seen one instance of water being boiled in a paper bag. The only downside of that is the physical integrity of wet paper. You could fill a paper bag with water, and use any hole riddled aluminum foil as a support mechanism. I would imagine that with rapid emptying of the bag after boiling the water, you could use the bag again until the wetness of the paper finally causes the bag to disintegrate.

Bountyhunter

>>What's the groove for just inside the edge?<<

It's a lamination line- the Swedes are fond of laminated steel in knives, and this is supposedly a very fancy powdered/sintered exotic steel. I haven't used it enough to comment first hand, but a lot of folks say it holds an edge very well indeed- including our own Chris. It does cut very well.

Cutting dog frisbees is actually rather hard on the edge of my knife. Sometimes it lands in dirt, and the dirt in the cracks dulls the edge quickly.

When I was a kid and in cub scouts, we boiled water in a paper cup. Worked well but melted the wax on the paper.

Also made breakfast in a paper bag...eggs and bacon. Pretty neat stuff

LOL it was 6:30am ... I guess I shouldn't be allowed to post before 7am. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think I read something about boiling water in paper containers over at BCUK. I guess this is something else I need to experiment with. Hope there's still propane in the tank under my BBQ grill when I get home tonight. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

>>A knife in the Psk don't tell Doug<<

No problem. Doug doesn't read this stuff. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

>>Actually I have toyed with the idea my self and made it work but I have to sacrifices other stuff, so I developed a urban Psk and a standard wilderness Psk.<<

I've done much the same thing, but my "urban" version has been torn apart now because I face the possibility of x-ray machines and metal detectors 4 days a week (they spot check).

I any case, I feel a "real" backup knife (as opposed to a scalpel or x-acto blade) is worth the space. I also have a tiny pair of folding reading glasses in each of my kit, which is also a sacrifice of space, but I can't read or do intricate close work without them.

>>The problem I had was the size of the tin.<<

Even though I have to sacrifice some items and make compromises on others, I don't want my kits to get any larger. I know from long experience that if they do, I won't take them when I don't think I'll need them. The Altoids-style is small enough to just slip in a pocket without considering how likely it is to be needed- any larger is not.

I have other stuff in the house (tons), in my vehicle (pounds), and in my shoulder pouch for commuting (maybe a pound), and of course I don't walk off into the woods without enough gear to get through reasonable worst-case scenarios.. so the kits are largely redundant 90+ percent of the time. I wouldn't want them to be any larger.

Of course, each of us gets to do whatever we want, so there's no particular reason for any two of us to want the same kit. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Presumed loss,
"real" backup knife (as opposed to a scalpel or x-acto blade) is worth the space"

Yep that is right on, I am with you every step of the way. I like the size but I want a knife and not to much bulk. I want other things in the kit but it gets to large to fast.

So what are my priorities in a urban environment what will I need in a earthquake, volcano eruption, tornado, hurricane,etc., even a terrorist attack. What would I need and not want in these situations. Also it is just like you said you can not carry every thing in all places.

I have a friend of mine that was in San Francisco during a bad earthquake years ago, all the buildings around her were destroyed and hers was left standing. She said the security guard would not let them out of the building for almost a day, it was dark and she could not get to her car and had to walk many miles home or what was left of her home. She said it was like a disaster movie, the only people there were small roaming gangs of people steeling, and stuff like that, and she is a lawyer.

That area went a long time without any stores being open, no running water, no power etc.

A scalpel blade does not cut it in that kind of situation so what is the answer??



MCSE

Cooking in foil (besides wrapping and baking or grilling) is pretty awkward at best (try fixing hobo stew in a foil-formed pot). It's kind of like the idea of a solar still for water... looks good on paper, but real world experience just doesn't support it. For those who insist that it's THE way to go, good luck, but for myself, I'd just as soon have a dedicated SOLID cook pot (let's face it, a canteen cup or small trail pot weighs next to nothing and doesn't take up a lot of space).

Troy

Thanks, wildcard- that's what I thought. I've bought several different sizes of metal mess kits that I'm using as the container for different sized kits.

I used to keep one of the small Gerbers in my kit, found them on sale and in bright colors some years ago. Now I keep a small Wegner. It was the smallest knife that has a saw and they were also on sale.

Back when I was a scout, I actually did boil an egg in an unwaxed paper cup over a small fire. The top may burn down to the water if you are not careful, but it does work. Heard about the bacon and eggs in a paper bag, but have not tried it yet.

Seperate note, we cooked omlettes in plastic bags for one camp outing recently. Crack two or three eggs into a heavy duty ziplock (quart), add cheese, spices, whatever, mix by kneeding, drop into a pot of boiling water, and cook until done. You eat it right out of the bag.

Bill

I would think bacon in a paper bag would not work. As soon as the grease comes out of the bacon, it will wick out into the paper and go up like napalm.

Anybody ever tried boiling water in a plastic bag? Presumably the same priciples that keep a paper cup from burning would apply here, but will the plastic deform too much when it gets close to boiling?

when we made the breakfast in a bag, the fire was just hot coals. We had made little cookers out of 3lb coffee cans for this.

Put several strips of bacon in the bottom of a paper lunch bag then shake an egg up, break it open then drop it over the bacon. Put that over the coals and let it cook. The bacon grease burns at a higher temperature than the bag, that helps to keep it from burning up. Actually works well.

Goatrider:

I doubt that you could boil water over a direct flame in a plastic container because the water does not seep into the fibers like it does in paper. The plastic would melt until a hole appeared at the hottest point and then the melting would occur at a different place until all the water leaked out or the water put out the fire.

I would be leery about boiling a lunch in a regular ziplock that was not made for water immersion cooking as the plastic components could leach into the food even if the bag were not visibly melting.

Brad:

I don't understand how you can fry bacon in a regular paper bag over an open flame. While the explanation of a fat soaked bag not burning seems feasible on the face of it, it would take a while for the fat to melt off the bacon and any part of the bag that was dry would flame up over an open flame. The other thing is that pork grease once melted and partially vaporized is highly voliatle. If you have "PERSONALLY" done so successfully, please give us details as I would like to try this on my grill for safetys sake. If you have not done this "PERSONALLY", please question your source for details as I find it hard to believe.

Thanks!

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

bountyhunter, that seems more likely than the latent heat of evaporation of the water keeping it cool (below boiling), but has anybody actually tried it?

Goatrider:

I am not a chemist and I have never tried boiling water in a plastic container, but I have observed that plastic starts to deform before it bursts into flame, so I am guessing the same thing would happen with water in a plastic bag.

Bountyhunter

I'm not a chemist either, but this is more a job for a materials scientist. And there's only one way to find out really- go and make a mess out of my gas stove. Here goes, I'll go get back to you.

OK, here's what I found out.

With thin sandwich bags, forget it. They started blowing holes just about right away. Also, if they weren't full, the heat goes around the water, and melts the plastic above the water.

With a full quart freezer bag, I started to get somewhere- but where there were little wrinkles on the bottom of the bag, it started blowing pinholes.

So, I tried a quart bag on it's side, where it's smooth. Really tricky to hold that way, without getting burned. It never sprang a leak, but the zipper part started melting with the heat going around the bag, and I was losing the hair on my hands, so I quit.

Conclusion: it might be possible still, if you can manage to hold the bag in such a way that only smooth plastic with water on the other side is in contact with the heat. But damned if I can figure out how to do it in the comfort of my kitchen with a reliable gas stove. In a survival situation, no way.

Goatrider:

Maybe using a heavy aluminum foil base which is in contact with the bag that has water in it, but with the aluminum having a wide diameter so that flame and heat spilling around the edges would not directly affect the parts of plastic not having water in them might work.

If you decide to try it, give us the results.

Thanks!

Bountyhunter

That might work. But one of the problems I had was I left the stove running when I filled another bag, and when the bag touched the metal part of the stove it blew open right away. What I'm worried about is that the alumninum foil would also get the same sort of hot spots, which would melt into the bag. But it's worth a try, of course. Work is nagging me this afternoon, so I might not get to it right away if someone else wants to try it.