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#298223 - 01/30/21 10:50 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: Macgyver]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 648
Loc: Arizona
Since Doug alerted me about this thread I have started typing a number of replies but to sum them all up; Training is more important than equipment. You can carry whatever you want in a kit, just make sure you have the training to utilize it. On that note, make sure you understand the ramifications of performing treatments that may be legally regulated.

On the cayenne pepper issue; I think your priority of carrying it and not have a compress dressing like the Israeli dressing is backward. There is a lot of anecdotal information that cayenne pepper can slow bleeding and improve clotting but no actual evidence. Again you can carry whatever you want in your own kit, but for the others here that are considering carrying cayenne pepper for medical purposes please do a lot of research before doing so.
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"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#298224 - 01/30/21 10:58 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: Alan_Romania]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3821
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Alan_Romania
Training is more important than equipment.


Quoted for emphasis.

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#298225 - 01/30/21 11:06 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: TeacherRO]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Thank you for your insights. Incidentally, for normal backpcking usage, I have been carrying a SAM splint for the last several years - a really versatile item.

Training, training, uber alles.....

absolutely true, especially with lots of practical exercises.
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#298238 - 01/31/21 10:04 AM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: KR20]
Macgyver Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Victoria Australia
Originally Posted By: KR20


WOW, I'm at a loss here! A lot of this will get you in trouble here in the States! Israeli Bandages are great, Air splints cause compartment syndrome and have been removed from care for over a decade! Look at SAM splints or Vacuum splints. Suturing in the field is risky and you better know your wound care or you just made things worse. V-Zap, not touching that one. Changed my mind, Get them to a hospital with anti-venom, don't play doctor!

20
Paramedic


Air splints need to be used carefully for sure, but they also have the benefit of being able to stabilize low blood pressure due to shock in emergencies. They can save a life and have literally done that when used carefully for set periods of time. Naturally for too long or too much pressure can cause compartment syndrome and careful attention to pressure due to altitude and atmospheric pressure changes are needed. Training is the most important thing.

Training and practice are also very important when it comes to suturing in the field, proper practice and wound care are essential. Naturally the larger the wound and the deeper the wound the more skill and knowledge is required.

As far as the V-Zap and such devices, I have used this method to treat snake bite, many spider bites and numerous other venomous stings over the years all with great success. This was after there was significant swelling and pain.

I know of several doctors who have used this method many times with great success and I know personally the doctor who cured river blindness and supervised a 30 year long program using this method in Ecuador. I know several missionaries who use this method all the time to treat snake bite and regularly save lives even when limbs would normally require fasciotomy. The swelling immediately starts to go down, the skin wrinkles up again and the pain goes away very quickly.

All that to say that it does work, and it works well if you do it properly. The V-zap is a lower voltage higher frequency unit and is my preferred device for a first aid kit as it works best for kids and those who are sensitive to electricity. Anyone who can use a TENS unit can use the V-zap, which is not the same for improvised treatment using small petrol engine spark systems which however require fewer treatment cycles.

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#298239 - 01/31/21 10:22 AM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: Alan_Romania]
Macgyver Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Victoria Australia
Originally Posted By: Alan_Romania


On the cayenne pepper issue; I think your priority of carrying it and not have a compress dressing like the Israeli dressing is backward. There is a lot of anecdotal information that cayenne pepper can slow bleeding and improve clotting but no actual evidence. Again you can carry whatever you want in your own kit, but for the others here that are considering carrying cayenne pepper for medical purposes please do a lot of research before doing so.


I understand your view and normally I would agree. But I normally have a brick of 4 inch gauze pads in there and several compression bandages as part of the first aid backpack, so I already have that emergency capability. The idea of the Israeli bandage is simply to speed things up in applying first aid when needed. Seconds save lives and so it is one thing that I plan on adding.

Cayenne pepper is one thing that I have used with success to dissolve blood clots in the body and overcome thromboses. It works topically to help with bleeding and it has been used for emergency application (by mouth in water) to cause rapid clotting of internal bleeding which has been lifesaving by herbalists for many years. I am not sure of any major studies either but I do know that it works and when someone is dying, if you have it, it may very well make the difference of saving their life or bleeding out. But the main reason that I have it is much less extreme. I have used it to treat thrombosis in a family member twice with great success. Also I have used it to clear out fully blocked arteries after heart surgery of another relative... extended and careful use of course, when the doctors could do no more for him. Of course it is important to not use cayenne pepper with people who are taking decent doses of blood thinners.. that can thin the blood too much so I would not give it internally but pour it into the wound as a final resort.

If you are going to use things of course it is essential that you don't go off half cocked and that you are knowledgeable in the use of such tools and treatments. Everything that is in your first aid kit you should be fully skilled and practiced in the use of.

As an aside, some local fire fighters who work with EMS / Search and Rescue, carry a bag of sugar in the truck with them. For deep wounds with internal bleeding that can't be stopped they take a cup of sugar and pour it in the wound and bandage on top it works like a treat according to them, it also helps with edema. Google scholar search for sugar and wounds is an interesting read...

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#298240 - 01/31/21 06:22 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: Macgyver]
KR20 Offline
CEP
Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 105
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: Macgyver
Originally Posted By: KR20


WOW, I'm at a loss here! A lot of this will get you in trouble here in the States! Israeli Bandages are great, Air splints cause compartment syndrome and have been removed from care for over a decade! Look at SAM splints or Vacuum splints. Suturing in the field is risky and you better know your wound care or you just made things worse. V-Zap, not touching that one. Changed my mind, Get them to a hospital with anti-venom, don't play doctor!

20
Paramedic


Air splints need to be used carefully for sure, but they also have the benefit of being able to stabilize low blood pressure due to shock in emergencies. They can save a life and have literally done that when used carefully for set periods of time. Naturally for too long or too much pressure can cause compartment syndrome and careful attention to pressure due to altitude and atmospheric pressure changes are needed. Training is the most important thing.

Training and practice are also very important when it comes to suturing in the field, proper practice and wound care are essential. Naturally the larger the wound and the deeper the wound the more skill and knowledge is required.

As far as the V-Zap and such devices, I have used this method to treat snake bite, many spider bites and numerous other venomous stings over the years all with great success. This was after there was significant swelling and pain.

I know of several doctors who have used this method many times with great success and I know personally the doctor who cured river blindness and supervised a 30 year long program using this method in Ecuador. I know several missionaries who use this method all the time to treat snake bite and regularly save lives even when limbs would normally require fasciotomy. The swelling immediately starts to go down, the skin wrinkles up again and the pain goes away very quickly.

All that to say that it does work, and it works well if you do it properly. The V-zap is a lower voltage higher frequency unit and is my preferred device for a first aid kit as it works best for kids and those who are sensitive to electricity. Anyone who can use a TENS unit can use the V-zap, which is not the same for improvised treatment using small petrol engine spark systems which however require fewer treatment cycles.


Please read this before you try to use an air splint to bring up low blood pressure! EMS Myth -Medical Anti-Shock Trousers. We stopped using MAST/PASG pants in the early 2000 because they don't work.

20


Edited by Alan_Romania (01/31/21 07:12 PM)
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#298243 - 01/31/21 07:20 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: TeacherRO]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 648
Loc: Arizona
There is a TON of evidence that MAST/PASG devices do not work and may do more harm than good in many circumstances. I don't even know how many patients I have put them on in years past, but we know better now. I don't buy into the "it has always worked for me" mentality of medicine. I am of the school of Evidence-based medicine... prove it works!

Sugar and more specifically Honey have been proven effective for wound management and healing... Bleeding control is another issue altogether. In a survival situation, making do with what you have is one thing but there is NO EXCUSE for professional rescuers/healthcare providers to be carrying sugar for bleeding control when there are a number of highly effective hemostatics available.

"The problem with Evidence Based Medicine is really the clinicians" Shyan Goh (Orthopaedic Surgeon - Sydney, Australia)
Don't be the provider that gets in the way of good medicine because "it always worked".


Edited by Alan_Romania (01/31/21 07:25 PM)
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#298244 - 01/31/21 09:33 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: Macgyver]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Macgyver
Cayenne pepper is one thing that I have used with success to dissolve blood clots in the body and overcome thromboses. It works topically to help with bleeding and it has been used for emergency application (by mouth in water) to cause rapid clotting of internal bleeding which has been lifesaving by herbalists for many years.

Seems like a rather glaring contradiction here? On the one hand you claim cayenne pepper dissolves blood clots. In the next sentence you claim it causes rapid clotting of internal bleeding.

Is it a "coagulant" which increases the formation of blood clot?
Or is it an "anticoagulant" which reduces the tendency to clot (but does not dissolve clots that have already formed).
Or is it a "thrombolytic" which actually dissolves clots that have formed?

It can't be all three at once.
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#298246 - 01/31/21 10:14 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: TeacherRO]
Macgyver Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Victoria Australia
Thanks KR20 for your link, I look forward to checking it out and seeing what the current research shows.

ASKAR, I suggest that you check out the affects of Cayenne pepper in the body, it is a very remarkable compound. It thins the blood slightly allowing proper blood flow, it cleans out the vascular system allowing better circulation and dissolving clots over time in the blood vessels. It also aids in clotting where there is internal injuries or wounds. The action internal to the vascular system of dissolving clots is a much slower one and is part of the healing processes in the body from what I understand. As far as the actual biological mechanism, I am not aware of how it does it's job exactly, but it does work and future research is warranted, but unlikely to happen seeing there is no money in it and most research requires a monetary carrot in order for it to be performed these days.

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#298248 - 01/31/21 11:28 PM Re: First aid kit upgrades [Re: TeacherRO]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
What are the specific references you would have AKSAR (not ASkAR) check out? Please cite them.

Basically you are claiming that Cayenne pepper can perform at least two diametrically opposed functions. That is indeed remarkable, if true.

I work in a field with a close relationship to science (archaeology) and I have done enough research-like activity to assert that research doesn't require money so much as it requires good records and clear logic, especially for pioneering efforts on which you base future grant requests.

For the moment, please color me skeptical....

Just did a quick search of 'cayenne pepper" and encountered this article which discusses health benefits -
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/267248. No mention of clotting ability, although it may retard Alzheimer's, a subject of great concern to geezers like me. The Wikipedia article on cayenne does not mention any health benefits at all


Edited by hikermor (01/31/21 11:40 PM)
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