Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#293327 - 09/10/19 03:17 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6942
Loc: southern Cal
I think it is a matter of tending to what is likely to kill or injure you rather than what makes the headlines. That doesn't mean you should be oblivious to the possibility of bear attacks and if you are in bear country, you should be mindful and take measure with which you are comfortable. Mostly this boils down to either bear spray or a firearm. People make their choice, and that's fine. This is a free country.

I can't find my copy of Herrero's book - "Bear Attacks and How to Avoid Them" (or something close to that). I believe he was favorably disposed to spray, although clearly spray is not perfect. What he really stressed was keeping a clean camp and making your presence known when around bears. I don't recall a percentage figure.

Lots of critters kill more people than bears - like honey bees (something like fifty or so a year). This isn't trivial. A good friend of mine, a strong hiker ,climber, and marathon runner, as well as a stalwart SAR member, was violently allergic to bees. he always kept an epipen handy, and he made sure that his companions knew about his condition and measures to take.

BTW, I was reading a summary of fatal bear attacks and there was one account of a lady evidently killed by a bear, although the summary stated that death may have been due to a round fired by her companion in an attempt to drive away the bear. Nothing is perfect....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#293328 - 09/10/19 03:19 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: hikermor]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6942
Loc: southern Cal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Herrero

A good reference on Herrero and his work.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#293329 - 09/10/19 03:39 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: hikermor]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1105
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: hikermor
I think it is a matter of tending to what is likely to kill or injure you rather than what makes the headlines. That doesn't mean you should be oblivious to the possibility of bear attacks and if you are in bear country, you should be mindful and take measure with which you are comfortable. Mostly this boils down to either bear spray or a firearm. People make their choice, and that's fine. This is a free country.

I can't find my copy of Herrero's book - "Bear Attacks and How to Avoid Them" (or something close to that). I believe he was favorably disposed to spray, although clearly spray is not perfect. What he really stressed was keeping a clean camp and making your presence known when around bears. I don't recall a percentage figure.

Lots of critters kill more people than bears - like honey bees (something like fifty or so a year). This isn't trivial. A good friend of mine, a strong hiker ,climber, and marathon runner, as well as a stalwart SAR member, was violently allergic to bees. he always kept an epipen handy, and he made sure that his companions knew about his condition and measures to take.

BTW, I was reading a summary of fatal bear attacks and there was one account of a lady evidently killed by a bear, although the summary stated that death may have been due to a round fired by her companion in an attempt to drive away the bear. Nothing is perfect....



Herrero was a co author with Smith. Their work is one mentioned in the article as being misrepresented.

"Comparing picking up apples to picking up hand grenades"


Having had bears threaten me and family both as a little kid and as an adult, having witnessed an attack (in Tualumne Meadows of all places) and having had to deal with nuisance bears, having had an elderly friend chased out of her house by one, bears have been a greater threat than bees.

Top
#293331 - 09/10/19 07:06 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2333
Loc: Big Sky Country
Ah, missed that part (and I'm reaaally bad with names).

Luckily I'm not allergic to bees or wasps although I don't enjoy being stung. I take precautions to avoid both. The issue with bears is that they run faster than Usain Bolt and they're hard to avoid sometimes. Camp hygiene is important but that won't help if you stumble on one hiking.

I'm not condemning bear spray and I have four cans of the stuff, two Counter Assault and two of the Udap. Mostly I'm just bringing to light something that I for one didn't know. Every article I've read up til that one parroted the same old "98% effective" stat and I figured that was likely right even though I've seen some high profile cases where the spray had zero effect.

Information is power, and everyone should look at all the facts before deciding what to carry. That's all I'm getting at.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

Top
#293334 - 09/10/19 05:47 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
Bingley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1409
I think hikermor's point isn't that bear encounters couldn't be dangerous or couldn't happen, but that there are far more likely causes of death and injury. Budget your resources accordingly.

Bear attacks are like dying at the hands of serial killers, getting taken out by the Sinaloa cartel and buried in the desert, or becoming a part of the statistics in a mass shooting. Getting a heart attack, dying in a car crash on your commute, getting a mortal reaction to an insect bite, etc. are all more likely. But we focus on the sensational stuff. We have long threads about bear attacks, but many people won't diet and exercise to save their heart.

By the way, chaos, obviously "tactical bears" are... black bears!!!

Top
#293338 - 09/10/19 08:59 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2333
Loc: Big Sky Country
True, but it's not really any extra effort for me to expand my scope to one more threat. I am already armed virtually any times I'm wearing pants so it's just a matter of choosing an appropriate firearm for the task.

Now tactical bears, that's more worrisome yet!
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

Top
#293339 - 09/10/19 11:06 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: clearwater]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6942
Loc: southern Cal
This is an interesting instance of different life experiences. I have done a great deal of hiking an climbing in ariona, mostly around Tucson, from1956 to 1985 when I transferred to the Channel Islands and a very different environment (no bears, just sharks).

In AZ, i had some bear encounters without noticeable incidents, the most notable being shining a light on a bear rummaging in our garbage can at Chiricahua Nat'l Mon. I shouted to my wife "We've got a bear in our trash" and the bear took off. Smart bear, he didn't want ti deal with that wife.

Snakes - quite a few over the years (an occupational hazard of archaeology). Generally they go one way and I go the other.

Mountain lions - Lots of time in their turf,t particularly around Baboquivari Peak. I have never seen one in the flesh, just their tracks.

Doing volunteer SAR, lots and lots of fall victims, including numerous fatalities. It is amazing how many folks drown in the desert (flash floods). We lost eight in one afternoon at a popular rec area. It took a week to find them all. I understand I made a brief appearance on ABC, extricating a victim on rappel from a flowing waterfall.

My take on all this. Know the hazard profile on the area in which you are venturing and acquire the knowledge and skills necessary to deal with them. I possess a variety of firearms, but carry them less and less, other equipment being more broadly useful (and lighter)> At one point a NPS commissioned LEO and military veteran, I consider myself adequate trained.

The main point of this is that one should be aware of potential problems, and take appropriate measures. these will vary, depending on resources available and individual background.

While I am not a big fan of guns, there are times and places where they are the best tool.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#293340 - 09/11/19 12:36 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2333
Loc: Big Sky Country
Can't say as I disagree. We seem to face different risks. In Idaho and Montana I have so far not seen a snake of any kind although there must be some present. Luckily, also no sharks. grin There are risks associated with getting to the woods (eg car accident) but once there the risks are of the mundane variety for the most part: Ticks and their associated diseases, getting lost, mosquitoes and their associated diseases, mechanical injuries including falls or trees falling, cuts from axes, saws and knives, exposure/hypothermia, drowning (pretty unlikely here but no impossible) and wild critters. Probably the 2 legged variety as well although I have had no issues here yet.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

Top
#293354 - 09/11/19 07:51 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Bingley]
chaosmagnet Online   content
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3162
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bingley
By the way, chaos, obviously "tactical bears" are... black bears!!!



Top
#293357 - 09/11/19 08:14 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
DaveL Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/03/18
Posts: 15
A very interesting discussion thanks Phaedrus , I was just watching a show on the animal planet call I Was Prey, many different encounters with the animal world.
However the most dangerous Is Homo sapiens.

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, cliff, Hikin_Jim 
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
Who's Online
2 registered (Herman30, M_a_x), 184 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BereniceStanaway, aakanksha, 9Line, SkiSoloII, KMNPack
5293 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Has any of you really buried a survival cache ??
by chaosmagnet
Today at 01:36 AM
Castaway
by Russ
Yesterday at 01:36 PM
Santa Cruz Island Boat Fire
by Pete
09/15/19 10:47 PM
Wordless tutorial III - single strand diamond knot
by TonyE
09/14/19 07:12 PM
Suggest me a fixed blade and a folder
by hikermor
09/14/19 05:58 PM
Solving a math equation
by M_a_x
09/14/19 06:47 AM
Easy way to start a fire
by Chisel
09/14/19 03:34 AM
AG13 Batteries
by Jeanette_Isabelle
09/13/19 06:23 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.