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#290641 - 09/20/18 10:03 PM Martial Law
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
What do we do in the event martial law is declared? More specifically what I want to know is what to do when away from home and martial law is declared?

Jeanette Isabelle
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“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290643 - 09/21/18 04:30 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Herman30 Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 371
Loc: Finland
Less than polite response deleted.


Edited by chaosmagnet (09/22/18 09:26 PM)

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#290645 - 09/21/18 09:06 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Herman30]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
I said "martial law," not "martian law."

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290646 - 09/21/18 10:52 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Herman30]
adam2 Offline
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Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 450
Loc: Somerset UK
If martial law is declared, then government powers are almost unlimited, with most or all of the normal legal system suspended.

Under such conditions, it would in general be best to follow the directions of the government, which will likely be enforced by the armed forces as well the police.

Remember that disobeying instructions under martial law is likely to result in imprisonment, perhaps in conditions much harsher than would normally be allowed, or even in being shot.

If you decide not to follow emergency instructions, then remember that this is likely to be a very high risk strategy.
Enforcement is likely to be stricter in urban areas. TPTB CAN patrol densely occupied areas very thoroughly and shoot violators
Out in the countryside, there are simply not enough troops to patrol everywhere, though remember that a variety of surveillance techniques allow a small force to observe a large area.

Also under martial law, TPTB can confiscate firearms, food, fuel, precious metals, real estate, and anything else considered useful.

Any last minute or half hearted efforts to conceal supplies are unlikely to succeed and may result in summary execution.

It might be worth thoroughly concealing a stash of vital supplies well in advance, like now.
A deeply buried large plastic barrel containing long life supplies might be prudent.
If RECENTLY buried it might be readily detected, but after a year or two, the concealment should be effective.

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#290648 - 09/21/18 01:24 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: adam2]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
"Also under martial law, TPTB can confiscate firearms, food, fuel, precious metals, real estate, and anything else considered useful.

Any last minute or half hearted efforts to conceal supplies are unlikely to succeed and may result in summary execution."

Goodness gracious!! You all certainly do play rough in Merrie Olde England. Can you give any relatively recent examples (say after the Norman Conquest) of the implementation of such extreme measures?

It might be worthwhile to define the terms in use here. And whatever is "TPTB"?
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#290649 - 09/21/18 01:52 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: hikermor]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
TEOTWAKI deleted.


Edited by chaosmagnet (09/22/18 09:25 PM)
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290650 - 09/21/18 02:10 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 524
Loc: UK
> If martial law is declared, then government powers are almost
> unlimited, with most or all of the normal legal system
> suspended.
Untrue

wikipedia:
'Martial law is the imposition of direct military control of normal civilian functions of government, especially in response to a temporary emergency such as invasion or major disaster, or in an occupied territory.'

The military are still subject to law. The Confederacy were under martial law after the civil war. That didn't give the union army the right to go round murdering anyone they wanted.

If you are somewhere that lets the military do anything they like. There is a simple solution for almost everyone on this forum.

Get a plane home.

qjs

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#290651 - 09/21/18 03:17 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 524
Loc: UK
Less than polite response deleted.


Edited by chaosmagnet (09/22/18 09:26 PM)

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#290653 - 09/21/18 03:39 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3425
Loc: USA
There were some good answers on this thread but I'd like to point out 1) this isn't a survivalist/TEOTWAWKI forum and 2) some of the responses were not as polite as they should be. Thread locked.


chaosmagnet

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#290666 - 09/22/18 09:24 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3425
Loc: USA
A request was made for me to reconsider, and the result is that the thread is now unlocked.

Here’s how it stays unlocked:
  • No personal attacks or bashing
  • No TEOTWAWKI stuff



chaosmagnet


Edited by chaosmagnet (09/22/18 09:24 PM)

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#290668 - 09/22/18 10:45 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
I think it will only go in a bad direction.

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#290669 - 09/22/18 11:04 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: chaosmagnet]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
  • No TEOTWAWKI stuff

Acknowledged. I will respect that.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290670 - 09/22/18 11:35 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: gonewiththewind]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
My joke about the zombies was harsh; according to Wikipedia martial law was imposed in America thirteen times. Every situation in America was brief and not the end of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_the_United_States

If martial law is declared in America a fourteenth time, it will for a brief period like the other thirteen times. That is what I want us to put our focus.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290671 - 09/23/18 12:01 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: chaosmagnet]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Hmmm, I stayed out of this thread before the lockdown anticipating a lockdown as threads of this topic are magnets for TEOTWAWKI posts. So other than to say an optimistic, “No worries, it won’t happen here”, I’ll continue to stay out.

Have fun fantasizing.

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#290672 - 09/23/18 12:47 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
CJK Offline
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Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 586
Loc: FL, USA
TPTB=The Powers That Be

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#290673 - 09/23/18 02:34 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: gonewiththewind]
chaosmagnet Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3425
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Montanero
I think it will only go in a bad direction.


Maybe I’m an optimist. The group as a whole has made moderation VERY easy for me, especially in the last year or so. This makes me willing to take a risk of making more work for myself.

Montenero, I view your post as respectfully disagreeing with me regarding unlocking the thread, which I sincerely appreciate. I don’t make the rules, I just do my best to enforce them fairly. I rely on all of you to tell me when you feel like I’m making a mistake.


chaosmagnet

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#290674 - 09/23/18 03:45 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
dougwalkabout Offline
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Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2915
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Given that this thread, already on very thin ice and skating toward open water, is now on chaosmagnet's VERY short leash, I will add a small comment or two. And then duck-and-cover under my desk. laugh

Words are important. The words "Martial Law" evoke the deepest of all fears. That's the reason such threads go ugly in seconds flat.

But standing back from such galvanizing words, it's important to recognize that all democracies, by practical necessity, have prior legislated measures available for dealing with a variety of emergency situations. If these are designed to be scalable to the problem at hand, and temporary in duration, and subject to scrutiny afterwards, they are not automatically the soul of all evil. They are nothing more than the best that can be done in a bad situation.

My 2c.

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#290675 - 09/23/18 08:26 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
adam2 Offline
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Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 450
Loc: Somerset UK
Thanks for re-opening.

TPTB=An abbreviation for the "the powers that be" avoids tedious discussion as to exactly WHICH official or government department is being referred to.

As regards martial law in the UK, I am not aware of it ever being been declared in recent times.
Likewise in the USA.

I consider it unlikely that martial law will be declared in either the USA or the UK.
It COULD happen though, and without veering into political argument, it seems reasonable to state that government powers are likely to be very considerably in excess of those powers whilst times are normal.

Requisitioning of goods and supplies, restrictions on travel, and the directing of labour are foreseeable consequences.

Disobeying instructions whilst under martial law could be a very high risk strategy indeed.

There is IMHO something to be said for a well buried cache of supplies for use after any serious or major disaster, including but not limited to martial law.
Floods, fires, tornadoes, heatwaves, blizzards, earthquakes, and other disasters are more likely and more worth considering.

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#290676 - 09/23/18 12:36 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
The place for me to be, in the event martial law is declared, is in our gated community unless we experience a flood.

I know the smart thing to do is to be in our homes and follow all orders given by the military. What if Mom and I are on a road trip in another state when martial law is declared? Do we have to remain in our timeshare or would we be allowed to drive back to Florida?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290677 - 09/23/18 01:27 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1105
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Do we have to remain in our timeshare or would we be allowed to drive back to Florida?

Probably the given orders will tell you about that. I guess it will depend on the reason for declaring martial law. There may be reasons that demand to contain people where they are (e.g. disease control). There may also be a requirement to obtain paperworks for travelling.
Is there a standard procedure for special incidents in the USA? In Germany a standard procedure is to listen to radio broadcasts refering to the incident and inform people who might not have received the message. Radio stations have to broadcast those messages upon request.
You may also have to consider the case of having to transit through a state with martial law between your timeshare and your home.
_________________________
If it isn´t broken, it doesn´t have enough features yet.

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#290678 - 09/23/18 01:30 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3425
Loc: USA
To the best of my knowledge the last time martial law was declared in the USA was in Alabama, 1961.

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#290679 - 09/23/18 02:20 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: adam2]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
Let's look at the real world for recent examples of "martial law," We recently experienced a destructive fire and we were within a mandatory (not really mandatory) evacuation zone> I would have left anyway - it is my customary procedure when directly downwind from an advancing fire.

Entry into the zone was restricted in order to retard looting and looky-loos. Later on, national Guard troops were activated and manned principal check points to supplement the local police. Life went on as normal as possible. The Constitution was not suspended and no one was shot on sight, nor did anyone have to surrender their supplies to feed the troops. I suspect that owners of heavy equipment might have seen some "hasty rentals," but I dare say they were duly compensated.

In a related incident, someone set an arson fire very near our house. Early the next morning, two firemen were mopping up. I inquired if they would like a cup of coffee. The answer being yes, I brewed them a pot. It was the least I could do to show support and help out.

There was never a formal declaration of ML, although is the situation had become more extreme, there might have been, the details of which would have depended upon the circumstances of the incident.

My supplies are not all stored in one location, but actually burying perfectly usable items with the hopes that they will remain undiscovered and in good shape, smacks of survivalist hogwash.

Live life, be aware, and adjust to ever changing conditions
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Geezer in Chief

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#290681 - 09/23/18 03:15 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 450
Loc: Somerset UK
Whilst the above is an interesting report of a real life incident, it is not in my view an accurate picture of what could happen in the much more serious situation of martial law being declared.
Turning out the national guard to assist in any large scale emergency is the sensible thing to do, and a long way from martial law.

Here in the UK, the armed forces were called to assist the civil forces during severe flooding. A sensible and appropriate response and not comparable with martial law.

Here in the UK the government can if need be declare a "state of emergency" which is not martial law, but does give the government greater powers and with less scrutiny than would be the case under normal conditions.

There have been two UK states of emergency in my lifetime, but no martial law.

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#290682 - 09/23/18 03:34 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
To the original question, you do what they tell you. As with any law enforcement interaction, follow instructions, do not resist. If you have any issues with what or how they did it, take it up later with a lawyer.

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#290683 - 09/23/18 04:27 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LesSnyder Offline
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Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1637
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
I was stationed in at Clark AFB, Philippines when martial law was declared by Ferdinand Marcos in 1972... I was downtown at an establishment that served adult beverages, and upon leaving, sometime after :0030L, and not knowing that a curfew had been ordered, was courteously transported to the Tri Agency Patrol facility and remained there until the curfew expired at 0600 (IIRC)...at that time the Philippine government was very appreciative of the US utilization of base facilities in their country, and the Philippine Constabulary (national military style police) treated American service personnel very well for the most part... after the initial incident violating curfew, I observed the imposed limitations, and even when living down town, my daily routine did not change... married friends lived in "compounds" and had their own private security, but I was never affected... just made aware that the jeepney (cab service) would stop running about 1/2 hour prior to curfew, and needed to head back to main gate if I wasn't staying in the ville

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#290685 - 09/23/18 04:52 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: adam2]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
Let's just say that the UK and USA are different political entities, sharing wonderful traditions, but with perhaps somewhat different practices.
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Geezer in Chief

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#290716 - 09/25/18 03:49 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Last month my son was doing a research project for US History and discovered that martial law was implemented in our town in 1917 over labor disputes involving the WOBBLIES. The workers at the mills and mines of the area at that time were mistreated, jailed and not being paid, so several union groups became involved. The wobblies gained power at that time.

http://www.historylink.org/File/7363

The Federal, State and Local Governments made it illegal to be a member of the union and hunted down members all over the country.

So if you weren't a member or sympathizer with that group, you weren't likely effected much. Otherwise illegal behaviors were carried out by the Government and their private accomplices to members of the union.

"To the original question, you do what they tell you. As with any law enforcement interaction, follow instructions, do not resist. If you have any issues with what or how they did it, take it up later with a lawyer."

That is assuming the law enforcement or accompanying corporate entities are not trying to outright kill you, as in past marshal law enforcements.


Edited by clearwater (09/25/18 03:56 PM)

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#290717 - 09/25/18 06:47 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 524
Loc: UK
There has of course been examples, in living memory, of European martial law where the military were literally excluded from any legal limitations on their behaviour.
World War 2.
The nazis specifically excluded their troops from any legal redress by civilians in the invasion of the soviet union. Similarly the Red Army ran amok when it counter invaded Germany.
As did the japanese in WWII.

The British paramilitaries in the Irish War of Independence
were allowed to make up their own rules.

I don't think this is what people mean by declarations of martial law though. They seem to mean declarations by ones own government. Not an invading army.
Technically you could say that is what the British were doing in the war of independence. Ireland was legally part of Britain. Again it's a war, not a sudden dictatorship though. And as an Irishman I of course, don't see the British presence as legitimate.
The balkans is a more recent example. Where muslims certainly had no legal right facing the Serbs.
But the idea that in an advanced western nation the government is going to declare tyranny. And the government departments would carry it out. Has no evidence to support it.
An obvious point in the USA. Who is going to carry it out? You've had the Democrats in power for 8 years this century. And the Republicans for the rest. If they really are faking all these gun attacks and building these concentration camps for the day. Why do they never do it?
qjs

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#290718 - 09/25/18 07:03 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: clearwater]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
"That is assuming the law enforcement or accompanying corporate entities are not trying to outright kill you, as in past marshal law enforcements."

That , of course, is a very bad position to occupy, but it is worth pointing out that in the United States, while generally constitutional rights have been upheld, that has not always been the case - does "Emmett Till" ring any bells?

Unfortunately, there are all too many examples of "law enforcement or accompanying corporate entities" engaging in highly questionable, if not abjectly illegal behavior. I would just point out that historically this behavior has not necessarily been tied to the imposition of martial (or marshal) law. Bad dudes don't need proclamations.

It might be helpful to define precisely what "martial law" is, for the context of this thread. I suspect it varies a bit, depending upon the nation and the era....

Trying not to be political....
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#290719 - 09/25/18 08:51 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Channeled Scablands
The history of martial law in Spokane as I know.

First declared at city level.
The City of Spokane banned public speaking in 1909, hoping to stifle the various worker’s movements.

Then State Level using forces OKed by the US war department.
A brief military occupation of Spokane by the National Guard and a declaration of martial law by Governor Ernest Lister. They arrested anyone belonging to the IWW.

Some of what I learned from all this was that the conflict spread and appears both sides had supporters who escalated things beyond what the leadership wanted and there were casualties on both sides. Some blame the uneven application of martial law, IE protecting only one side of things with law enforcement.

From an equipped standpoint, it would seem getting good information about current events would be important for preparing for such unrest.




Edited by clearwater (09/25/18 08:52 PM)

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#290721 - 09/25/18 11:43 PM Re: Martial Law [Re: hikermor]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: hikermor
It might be helpful to define precisely what "martial law" is, for the context of this thread. I suspect it varies a bit, depending upon the nation and the era....

My understanding is the military has to step in because we have a situation that overwhelms the limits of the civil government.

Regardless of the reason, something has happened to send the public into a panic. The military has to spet in until our collective anxiety attack has subsided. Then we return to business as usual.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#290942 - 10/24/18 03:07 AM Re: Martial Law [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Martial Law ... it's the kind of thing you hope never happens. it is more likely to occur 'locally' rather than nationally. e.g. a specific city that has a major rhreat or disaster.

I would obey all instructions immediately, never be angry or abusive, and NEVER carry anything that could be confused for a weapon. It would be smarter to be in a group, esp. well behaved people. and dont violate curfew hours.

Special military teams could be guarding high priority locations, such as Govt buildings or nuclear facilities. i would avoid these areas completely.

Overseas ... martial law is a risky situation if you are caught up in it. it happened once to me in Africa. i walked away ok, and i remained calm on the outside, but internally I was sweating bullets. you just never know what poorly trained soldiers in 3rd world counties will do. they tried to shake me down for a bribe, but i didnt give them anything. it is risky, very unpredictable.


Edited by Pete (10/24/18 03:09 AM)

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