A sound-suppressed .22lr, takedown autoloader, with a retractable stock and 7" barrel, with a see thru mount, 2x7 scope and dayglo paint on the iron sights (something like the Marlin Papoose) makes more sense to me. You're not going to have the saltpeter and sulphur for making black powder. "Corning" same, (needed to make it burn properly in a firearm) is very dangerous. You need so much blackpowder per shot, it's so corrosive, such a pita to clean up after each shot, wow! It's also just a single-shot, short-ranged, noisy,lots of flash at night, wont pierce concealed armor and it draws moisture.

If you need to forage, so will millions of other people and too many of them will shoot you on sight, post shtf. It only takes one person, and one .177 pellet, buckshot pellet, .22lr bullet to outright kill you, or give you such an infection that you die of it. So, realistically you dont want such arms for a survival sort of scenario. If it's not shtf, your normal ccw pistol and a rental satellite phone will do far more for you than any sort of longarm, and it's a lot handier to carry, too!

Is there a forum somewhere else on the internet where people are advocating using muzzle loaders for "survival"? Where is that? I really haven't see anyone suggest using such outdated tools around here.

I wouldn't want a muzzle loader for survival, preferring a cartridge firearm. But you seem to hate muzzle loaders for some reason. Nothing wrong with them, and they are fun.

I wouldn't want a BMW for survival either, preferring a 4x4 truck, but BMWs are still OK as a non-survival car.

That really depends on the actual scenario. If combat is not a factor shotgun and muzzle loader have advatages. I own a Hawken rifle cal. .54. It will outrange a .22lr and it is capable of taking big game up to a bison. In a pinch it´ll shot birdshot as well. Bullets can be reclaimed and recasted. The propellant can be used for different caliber firearms without any hassle. Cleaning it is more work than cleaning a modern cartridge gun. But it is far from pita. A skilled shooter can hit with a muzzle loader at 300m (there are even matches at 1000yds).
The shotgun offers versatility at medium range. It can shoot a range of projectiles from slugs to birdshot. It can harvest a wide range of game from small birds to deer or boar.
When it comes to signaling, both muzzle loader and shotgun will offer a sound that carries much further than that of a suppressed .22lr .
For the scenarios I might encounter realistcally the breech loading shotgun would be the gun of choice.

For the newbies among us, this is not a survivalist forum.

I think I would agree that a magazine fed, breech loading shotgun is the most versatile firearm. However, firearms in general, should rate surprisingly low on the list of survival necessities, well below the significant needs of water and shelter, fire,etc.

In my own survival or near survival experiences, plus the times when I helped others in such a situation, I can not recall any time when firearms would have been particularly necessary or even helpful.

Firearms seem to show up mostly in the fevered fantasies of Mad Max, shtf, wrol, etc scenarios which don't usually even come close to reality.

I do a nice assortment of firearms because they do come in handy from time to time, and frankly, they are enjoyable. If it came down to it, probably the most potentially useful would be my AR-7(takedown 22) or my good old Mossberg 500 shotgun. In the long run, neither would be as helpful and a good climbing rope.

Yeah, me too, I even have “.22lr, takedown autoloader” although mine is not “sound-suppressed” so it’s not at all unique or interesting.

so only "unique or interesting" topics are allowed here? that would rule out 99% of this site's content, for a fact. Somebody here doens't know that the suppressor can be removed from a 22lr rifle, or that a 7" .22lr aint loud enough to be a signal device? Like I said, if it's not shtf, your pocket pistol and a rental satellite phone are worth far more than any longarm. If it IS shtf, the last thing you want is a noisy weapon. If you had to carry that shotgun and enough ammo to make it worth having, for a month after shtf, you'd toss it into the creek. 10 shells to the lb, and how many of each would be slugs, buckshot or birdshot. The birdshot is as nearly worthless in combat as the buck and slugs are for small gam. HOw"versatile" is it, once when you've run out of ammo for it? You'd insist on having 100's of rds for a fighting rifle. That would be 20-30 lbs of 12 ga. :-) When it's a general shtf thing, you'll be attacked a lot, by men and dogs. Until then the longarm is no help vs being cut off by flooding, avalanche, fire. It wont help if you've broken your leg, but that rental satellite phone will.

try living off of that muzzleloader for a few months , cleaning it in the field, having to pull a charge all the time, cause you reloaded it immediately after firing, so you'd have the potential if you got another chance. It most certainly IS a pita. I dont hate anything, but there's billions of things that aint worth owning. :-)


as far as unique goes, you'll look far and wide and never find such a modified Papoose. and millions of us find suppressed .22 lr guns to be quite interesting. If they were legal for everyone, everybody would have one.

I think I am beginning to get the impression that you possibly might be beginning to form definite opinions on this matter. That's nice....

Please note Russ's first post on this thread - above.

Then I think your entire premise is really just a game. I see a lot of that, touting this or that (in the way of camp gear or know-how " for the homeless'. I was homeless for 3 years, and believe me, you are way ahead to buy an old junk car for $300, and live in town, than you are to spend 100's of $ on gear and live in the woods. :-) i lived at the mission until I could get enough craigslist and day labor money to buy the car, tossed out the rear and passendger seats, cut out the crossmembers blocking access to the trunk, installed a sheet of particle board and had a sleeping area. I got it running well enough to get a steady job, then bought a minivan and sold the old car to another homeless guy. He was a drunk and lost it to a towing company in less than a week. You have to move it, about 7 am and 10pm, or get into hassles. You only have to move it 1/2 mile or so, so it can have all kinds of horrible problems, and it will still serve the purpose. You can get food stamps, food from the food pantries, eat at the church and the mission. I mostly got around by bus (1/2 fare) and one my old bicycle. Once I got into jr college, got grants and loans, I got a 2 year degree that led to a decent job. The grants paid my actual expenses for college, selling my plasma covered most of my expenses. I used the school loan money to buy a house with a VA loan and now I rent out weekly rooms. It pays me pretty well.

I never once had to cook a meal in the vehicle. Only had to use the emergency kitty litter pan a couple of times in 3 years. Used jars for liquid waste. The acids destroy the lid's ability to seal liquids, so the jar has to be replaced about once a month. Ragu spaghetti sauce jars work pretty well. :-)

I mostly hung-out at the college library, but Planet Fitness gyms, $35 a month, are a godsend. They offer 24-7 access to a shower, toilet, electricity, a place out of the cold or heat, and the Wifi works in the parking lot, if you park close to the building (ie, late at night) You dont get hassled for parking there, either, since you're a member.

.22LR rifles are fun, but the vast majority of survival is performed with a map & compass — not getting lost. It’s very rare that anyone needs a rifle for survival outside of a war zone.

What if you need to defend your home from zombies?

Jeanette Isabelle

I saw a cute sign the other day...

I really need a backhoe...

I think you really need to define your stobors before you make claims about what is the best gun for it. A supressed .22 SBR might be a good gun for a downed military aviator skulking around in hostile territory. But, it's a marginal gun for a backpacker, or canoeist (ultra light .22 rifle or a long barreled .22 pistol). And, completely unsuitable for anybody who might have to deal with large predators or has a generous weight budget (river rafters, bush pilots, etc.) are better outfitted with a shotgun or large caliber rifle.

I totally agree on that one. I would like to add that local laws also play a role. Where I live, I would have a hard time to legally aquire and own a takedown semiauto .22lr with useful magazine capacity. A suppresor would add to the difficulties.

just a comment... a muzzle loader is not a very effective delivery system if you have a supply of propellant, projectiles, and caps... a simple Lyman tong tool makes a much more weather resistant metallic cartridge that is quicker to re charge your firearm provided you have the same amount of pre stored supplies... lead projectiles can be cast into SWC bullets as easily as round balls...smokeless propellants are much more efficient than black or Pyrodex type propellants, and less volume can be used

I'm not a fan of 12 ga shotgun for the same reason.. excessively heavy cartridges for any foraging type scenario, excepting slugs use against large or dangerous wildlife... likewise for home protection... with extended magazines, excessively nose heavy, and awkward to negotiate in tight places.... I've shot a lot of house clearing stages with a 21" Benelli...Uncle Joe B. hasn't shot much

For home defense, a shotgun can be very effective from a static position, where your loved ones (if any) are all behind you and you're holding a hallway, stairwell or other area while waiting for the police. I agree that long arms in general are very challenging for any sort of indoor movement, especially where you must juggle a light (so that you don't muzzle anyone you shouldn't by searching with your weapon-mounted light) and closed doors.

My biggest problem with muzzleloaders are the speed of any required followup shots. I don't see any way that they're better than more modern types of firearms, for my uses.

While the caliber and type of weapon is important to consider, what is more important, indeed critical, is can you use it effectively. If you are proficient with a muzzle loader, and have the supplies, it can be effective. Know the capabilities and limitations of your chosen firearm, and develop your skills.

Weapons for survival can be a tricky thing to address. What kind of survival? The culture and focus of ETS is generally based on wilderness survival and surviving events that can strike in daily life. So this might mean a plane crash in the North woods, a capsized canoe with most gear lost, etc but it could also mean a large earthquake, a tornado or a hurricane. Generally this site doesn't really "do" EOTWAWKI discussions so weapons for apocalypse isn't a thing we address much. I suppose crimes like home invasions are a thing that, sadly, we potentially face in modern life although this might not be the ideal venue for those kinds of discussions.

In a wilderness survival situation a firearm normally isn't the most important thing to have but when you do need a gun you might need it badly! If I was doing a backpacking trip to a remote location in Montana, Colorado, etc I would absolutely want a firearm or two along.

While I'm not a rabid shotgun guy I think they're very versatile and effective firearms. A 12 ga pump with a 3.5" chamber can take any animal from pheasants and doves to geese and turkeys, and by changing loads it's suitable within 100 yards for moose, elk and the largest bears. True, in a wilderness setting the ammo is bulky and expensive. An over/under with a rifle barrel on to of a 12 ga barrel makes a useful woods gun.

I think that too much is made of length for home defense. Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch has a nice video illustrating the fact that the distance from the end of the barrel is about the same for a shotgun on the shoulder and sidearm fully extended out in an isosceles stance. A sidearm is a bit more maneuverable but training with a long gun can mitigate a lot of issues. Moreover there's no arguing with the fact that long guns pack a lot more punch. No gun is a 'death ray' but one round of 12 ga 00 Buckshot is likely to be more effective than one round of 115gr 9mm ammo. Long guns are also a lot easier to hit with, especially under stress.

If we're not concerned with defense against large predators (four legged or two legged) than a .22 rifle could be an excellent survival gun. You can easily carry a fairly large amount of ammo without a lot of weight or bulk. It's superb for small game and used skillfully can take large game as well.

Why don't prepare for brimstone hits the fan scenarios? Are we complacent in thinking things will never get that bad in the United States?

Jeanette Isabelle

Everyone has their own version of an EOTW apocalypse and unless you have that well defined, how can you have a conversation about which weapon would be most effective? Define your tactics: Are you surviving in a well prepared bunker/shelter and need to defend it from 2 legged predators, or are you doing a hunter-gatherer thing, roaming the country, scouting out necessary resources. If you are a hunter-gatherer and you come upon a bunker/shelter — what then? Join forces and make friends, or try to take it and the supplies inside. There are lots of variables, too many for an intelligent conversation.

If you weigh the probability of an EOTW apocalypse against a wilderness situation where a hiker loses the trail and can’t find his/her way back, there’s no comparison. One is fantasy and the other happens as a routine.

If you are in a war zone, all bets are off.

Occasionally I lurk on some of the sites that do EOTWAWKI because they are unrealistic in a rather amusing way (also usually politically tinged). Established order will end suddenly due to some unspecified disaster, and they because they stocked lots of ammo and live in a highly fortified location, will be top dogs.

When you look at history, that is not usually how it happens. Societies do flourish and decline, mostly on a fairly gradual scale (think the Maya for an example close at hand) and populations adjust and carry on. Not that you could not have a massive disaster (asteroid impact, anyone?) but the odds are long. You are probably going to do better to prepare for an earthquake, tornado, or hurricane - events far more likely.

I have spent a lot of time in the outdoors, both because of my personal interests and also because of my work in national parks. I am also a firearms owner. Unless you are engaged specifically in hunting, a firearm is just useless weight, about 100 times less useful than a full quart canteen.

I do keep weapons handy. I did have one experience many years ago where I was really glad I had my 357 in hand. Many of us here are comfortable with firearms, but they don't rule our lives. A gun is a tool, like an ax, hammer, or shovel. They are also fun, and the eight year old that lives inside me likes to get out and make noise once in awhile...

I swear, Hikermor, you and your asteroids! Is there something we should know?

One other thing. If I had to forage for a living, I would not spend a lot of time hunting big game. It is typically not that efficient. In most hunting gathering groups the guys will hunt, and the gals will gather - mostly plant products which provide the bulk of the diet. Much of course depends on the resources available.

Last night I attended a film premiere and subsequent panel discussion featuring some research done by my wife involving the "Lone Woman of San Nicolas Island. This lady, made famous by a novel based on her experience by Scott O'Dell, survived on the island for eighteen years. She did have home field advantage in a resource abundant environment, and by all accounts, she thrived, even without the advice of Bear Grylls.

Funny how her experience is never mentioned in contemporary survival literature.....

But did she use a muzzleloader??? Inquiring minds...

No firearms anywhere in sight. As a matter of fact, none of her gear could be characterized as a "weapon." She did have fishing gear, and stout sticks for birds and seals, etc.

In all fairness, California island coastlines present an ideal survival situation -just wander down at low tide and the supermarket is open for business. The native vegetation on the uplands provides plenty of green edibles for the salad course...

I loved that book when I was young (The Island of the Blue Dolphins). What does your wife say about her in light of her research?

I think it's more that those discussions are usually intertwined politics and religion, two topics that don't really fit here.

I'm not a mod or anything, just kind of guessing.

The plan is to bug in until it is time to bug out. Mom and I disagree on where to bug out. We can work on that plan as we are bugging in.

Jeanette Isabelle

My wife is researching the fate of the San Nicolas Islanders who came to Los Angeles in 1935, somehow leaving her stranded on the island. Usually those folks are identified in mission baptismal records as "Nicolenos." Most intriguing is a boy, five years old in 1935, who may have been her son. One hope is that modern descendants of the islanders can be traced and located.

Recently a redwood box has been found near one of her presumed dwellings which might well have been her personal belongings. Much of my wife's work will appear on this website:

https://www.nps.gov/chis/learn/historyculture/lonewoman.htm

Fascinating. I love this stuff. I used to do this as a kid in Northwest Florida. Many shell middens, and some other stuff. We notified a local university, but they had no interest in most of it, until we found evidence of Spanish occupation. Then we were chased out. Even found some Central American jade in there.

Yep, fascinating is the word I have for the story of Juana Maria, too. Thanks, hikermor, for expanding my horizon. As I read the story of the lone woman, I couldn't help but feel a great deal of sympathy for her. Her people were decimated by outsiders and forced to relocate. She got left behind on the island for eighteen years! Then when she was finally rescued, nobody spoke her language anymore because her tribe had perished. And yet, somehow, she retained a positive mindset. Apparently she sang quite often, and had a cheery disposition. Perhaps that's how she got through those 18 years?

Please alert us when your wife's research comes out.

I will do so. Her stuff will appear on the link to Channel islands Nat'l Park website referenced above. I continue to be amazed at the interest in The Lone Woman's story, but it indeed is an epic.

One reason no one could talk with her is that her people were taken to Los Angeles and when she came off, she went to Santa Barbara, where the natives spoke an entirely different language.

In the days before the 101, it was quite a trip between LA and St Barb, and no one made the trip.....

And you remember those days, don't you?

IMHO, it would be prudent to be equipped with firearms and a generous supply of ammo, for both hunting and for self defence.

However as others have already posted, in MOST survival situations other supplies are of more use.
Food, water, first aid supplies, map and compass, footwear, blankets, spare clothing and other supplies are likely to be of more use.
Unless you are in a war zone of course.

I would suggest that where legal, a pistol should be carried, and spare handguns plus rifles or shotguns or preferably both should be secured at home and carried when needed.
A choice of weapons gives redundancy in case of breakdown

I have my doubts about the viability of any gun involving black powder or muzzle loading, both can be interesting challenges whilst times are normal, but for emergencies I would have more faith in a large stock of modern cartridges.

I have read factual accounts from survivors of a recent conflict in eastern Europe, all refer to the scarcity of ammunition.

The more sensible and believable doomer novels also refer to ammunition becoming scarce.

Here in the UK a shotgun is relatively easy to lawfully obtain, other firearms are much more tightly controlled.
I have fired a handgun on a range, but lawful private possession of such a weapon is almost unknown.

Muzzleloaders have been used for hunting for centuries. They still are used successfully. They are not that hard to manage when you have some experience with it.
I agree that they may not be the weapon of choice when there are alternatives. In Germany muzzleloaders (with a few exceptions) are not regulated very tightly. You may not carry them but you can legally buy and own them without permits or registration when you are at least 18 y.o..



That would be a valid reason to prefer a shotgun. Regulations have an impact on preparation for emergencies.

Do we know this for sure? If you're an individual in a war zone, I'd think you'd have to practice evasion/avoidance of conflict. You can't fight a whole army. You don't want to be mistaken as a combatant or, worse, an agent or spy, and a firearm may suggest that. It seems the primary use might be the same as in civilian life -- self-protection against robbers.

This is just my reaction, of course. We need some actual data. Do we have any actual studies of what happens in a modern war zone? I have the impression that in some places (like Afghanistan) small arms are plentiful. Do civilians fleeing hot areas normally carry AKs?

I'm inclined to agree with your thinking. In a weapons free environment, being identified as armed, and not confirmed as a friendly, is a good way to get shot.

Having a pistol tucked under your jacket may be advisable, or not, depending on security checkpoints. But, I wouldn't go around obviously armed.

I haven't been able to find if scavenging guns is common practice during the initial flight. I daresay that the first smuggler or refugee camp you arrive at will confiscate any you have.

There are historical examples of successful carry of muzzleloaders in conflicts. In my family we still retain the "Yankee Cannon," a model 1842 muzzle loading single shot percussion cap pistol carried by my paternal great grandfather during a little skirmish known as Shiloh in 1862. He was a lad of twenty at the time and a civilian non combatant. His Dad was a farmer and itinerant preacher, conducting services every third Sunday at Shiloh chapel. I don't know if Gread GrandDad ever fired his weapon in anger, but he survived, unlike many others in that conflict. A ML must be better than nothing...

A much better sidearm at that time would have been a six shot revolver -"shot every day of the week and reloaded on Sunday"

FWIW: When refugees claiming to come from Syria arrived in Germany quite a few had full auto rifles and semi-auto handguns with them. Some of them even carried more than one. The guns where confiscated by the police at border crossings and train stations where the refugees arrived.
That indicates that having those guns is fairly common and it seems to be possible to keep them even on a longer journey. The persons who had the guns probably did not trust a smuggler or a refugee camp.

I'm not trying to stir the pot or be offensive. But, I can't find any articles about that. Can you point me toward your source?

+1. Followed the news about the mass of people traveling on foot through Europe in 2015. Not one of the reporters made any statements about refugees carrying weapons.

Were any of the Syrian refugees carrying muzzleloaders?

The sources are no longer available.

I doubt it. When carrying guns on flight, they might be intended for defense or as barter item. Neither could be consired a particular strength of muzzle loaders.

If a BMW is all you own, then it is a survival car. Kinda like my little 2002 Hyundai Accent; not ideal but a survival car all the same.

How much are those BMW muzzleloaders?

I hate to disappoint you. BMW did not build muzzleloaders. However they built engines for the BF 109 which was a strap on carrier for breech loading full auto guns. It even came with its own fan. I had the luck to personally know some guys who successfully used it for survival in a SHTF scenario. Those did not wish they had a muzzleloader for that either.

Let's face it - MLs are obsolete. You might as well plan to hand load cartridges for your firearm. You will be particularly limited as to proppelants and primers, but you have the same constraints with muzzle loads (percussion caps or even more finicky flints).
Hand loading, especially straight wall cartridges like 38 Special or 45-70 is quite straightforward, and not all that difficult for something like a 30-06 (if fired in the same weapon).

In effect, you just do your loading beforehand....

Yes, MLs are basically obsolete. In some European countries they are just easy to obtain and require no registration. They would not be my gun of first choice.
I hand load .44 Rem Mag, .45 Colt, 6.5x55 and 7x64 Brenecke (if I were American that would probably be a 30-06). I agree that the straight wall cases are easy to load and long lasting. Necksizing and annealing makes the 7x64 brass last longer and requires almost no trimming. However I might go for full sizing when I load for a group. That will allow for interchangeable ammo.