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#284599 - 05/22/17 10:31 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: hikermor]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
E-Tools have a long and distinguished history of being used as a weapon. It takes little training to hit someone with it. If the edge is sharp, it is that much more effective. That being said, I have not had the need to hit anyone with mine yet, but it digs very well.

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#284601 - 05/23/17 03:37 AM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: hikermor]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1143
Loc: Channeled Scablands

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#284602 - 05/23/17 08:34 AM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: quick_joey_small]
Herman30 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 320
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: quick_joey_small
a machete is going to get me arrested in England.

Really? Why then is Hennie Haynes allowed to sell them?

https://eur.heinnie.com/knives-and-tools/machetes

or

http://www.thebushcraftstore.co.uk/machetes-saws--tools-19-c.asp


Edited by Herman30 (05/23/17 08:44 AM)

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#284603 - 05/23/17 01:53 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: hikermor]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1415
Hey, I don't dispute the fact that you can used an improvised weapon to hurt somebody, even without any training. Heck, you can kill somebody even with a fountain pen. Let me repeat my comments in another way.

1. Which do you prefer in a life-or-death situation: the shovel, or a pistol with 15+1 rounds?

2. You have been training with a weapon for the last ten years (it can be a hand spear, knife, whatever). You haven't dug a day in your life. In a life-or-death situation, what would you prefer to have: the dedicated weapon you know well, or an improvised tool you've never touched?

If I were to happen upon some (human) predator, who would normally be prepared, I'd want a good plan and some good tools.

If the Spetsnaz had plans to use the shovel as a fighting tool, then they probably had specialized training to go with it. I don't think that sort of stuff is so hard to figure out if you had training with a weapon with a similar morphology. But most people haven't had that, and for them the marketing claims probably will stay just marketing claims. I'm waiting for the Montblanc Meistersück Tactical, used by the SAS in hand-to-hand fighting while looking good! For only $899.

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#284604 - 05/23/17 02:34 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: Bingley]
Russ Online   content
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5265
Loc: SOCAL
No sane person would buy a shovel to use primarily as a personal defense weapon, it's a shovel. However, as an expedient PD tool in a situation where a small shovel is handy and the pistol with 15+ rounds is not, an E-tool or CS SF shovel might be a better option than a knife. It's definitely better than bare hands.

That said, the thread is about digging and I've yet to find a 15 round pistol that's useful for digging a hole in the ground bigger than .45". YMMV

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#284605 - 05/23/17 02:57 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: hikermor]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 508
Loc: UK
I wrote:
> a machete is going to get me arrested in England.

Herman 30 wrote:

> Really? Why then is Hennie Haynes allowed to sell them?

My reply is:

Because uk offensive weapons legislation only covers public places.

qjs


Edited by quick_joey_small (05/23/17 02:58 PM)

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#284606 - 05/23/17 03:29 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: Bingley]
M_a_x Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1060
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Bingley

1. Which do you prefer in a life-or-death situation: the shovel, or a pistol with 15+1 rounds?

In many cases it may be the shovel. Even if it is personal defence, the shovel may be what I actually have.

Originally Posted By: Bingley
2. You have been training with a weapon for the last ten years (it can be a hand spear, knife, whatever). You haven't dug a day in your life. In a life-or-death situation, what would you prefer to have: the dedicated weapon you know well, or an improvised tool you've never touched?

Humans have an innate ability to use clubs and similar devices as a weapon. That is not the case with firearms.
Not so long ago military service was mandatory for males around here. In the training the combat use of shovels was thaught. In the right service branch the grunts got more opportunity to dig holes than to handle a rifle.
In a fight I´d prefer the shovel over the knife any day. It´s simply more effective. The same is true for digging a hole.
I´ll agree with you that most of the civilian buyers of the Spetsnaz shovel wont even come close to use it in combat.
_________________________
If it isn´t broken, it doesn´t have enough features yet.

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#284607 - 05/23/17 04:08 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: M_a_x]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7153
Loc: southern Cal
You don't describe the character of the life or death situation, so the category is wide open. In many LoD situations, a shovel would be much more appropriate - digging for avalanche or landslide victims, for instance, digging out a mired vehicle, and so on.

I am a firearms owner, and I have a hand gun with which I am quite familiar, but I have seem more critical situations in which the shovel would have been more useful, short of civil war or unrest.

I will admit that during the Rodney king riots of twenty-five years ago, I dusted off ol' Betsy, checked the loads, and was ready if civil unrest erupted in my neighborhood. Every twenty years or so, I have been really happy I was armed. Much more often I have been glad I was equipped with more mundane appliances in tight situations.

Of course, as an archaeologist, a shovel is a professional instrument.., put to use regularly.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#284608 - 05/23/17 04:22 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: quick_joey_small]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7153
Loc: southern Cal
The second link above included a summary of UK knife laws. Reading over that section briefly, it would appear that if you are engaged in an appropriate activity with the machete (or whatever), you would be just fine. it's when you walk into a bank or jewelry store with the machete that you get into trouble.

Any sentient LEO in any jurisdiction should alert when someone is toting something out of character with the surroundings or the ongoing activity...That's just good police work.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#284609 - 05/23/17 04:45 PM Re: What Do You Dig? (with) [Re: hikermor]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 508
Loc: UK
Of course. Otherwise any cop wanting to get his arrest record up, could simply wait outside kitchen appliance shops and grab anyone who'd bought a knife.
In the woods I'd probably be ok with a machete. The problem is getting there with it.
Actually I've never even seen forest workers here use machetes. Don't know what they do use.

qjs

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