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#283164 - 12/29/16 06:20 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: Herman30]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
This is why everyone needs to do just a little research before they go. A simple search of climate for the area or looking at the NPS web sites will give the temperature ranges you will encounter.

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#283166 - 12/29/16 06:30 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: hikermor]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
My family has made fun of me in the past for my preparations for trips (not so much anymore - I think they've given up). Their thinking is "What kind of fool packs fire starting and signaling materials for a cross country trip, on the interstate?" We've never needed any of it. But I still make sure it's available every trip.

My thinking is that once you find yourself in a bad situation, you WILL make bad decisions. While we look at people like this family and say, "She shouldn't have left the car", and be perfectly correct in that assessment, I imagine things don't seem so crystal clear when you're actually stuck and worried about your kid. Hopefully, those potential bad decision times are when I would remember to pull out my fire starting, signalling, shelter, cooking, emergency medical, and other "stupid stuff" that I packed and turn things into an impromptu camping trip.

Because it is so ingrained into me to prepare in advance and not rely on emergency decisions in the heat of the moment, this makes me less understanding of people that head out blind and assume "we'll figure it out when it happens". Especially when you read so many news reports of people who went in clueless and came out dead. I can't fathom how people ignore that and continue on in complete ignorance. As I get older, I tend to get mad at them for their stupidity, which I really shouldn't. I'm more accepting of adults who meet their demise due to stupidity, but I'm not as forgiving when they drag their unknowing kids in with them.

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#283167 - 12/29/16 07:00 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: gonewiththewind]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Pre-trip planning would also have given them the info that the park was closed.
North Rim Road Conditions
Quote:
North Rim Road Conditions

Driving Directions to North Rim Grand Canyon National Park.

Updated: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 6:00 pm (Updated when road conditions change)
* Highway 67 to the North Rim of the park is closed for the winter.
* The North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park is CLOSED FOR THE WINTER.

* The North Rim will open on May 15, 2017 for the 2017 Season


Call 928-638-7496 for current park road condition information recording.

* Please drive with caution and at speeds appropriate to the road conditions.
* Watch for deer in the roadway.

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#283168 - 12/29/16 07:02 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: Herman30]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
It is not necessarily true that you WILL make bad decisions. Many people will, but it is avoidable and you can train to not make such bad decisions.

A little practice of the right skills will make them salient in your mind and become the default response.

A little thought about your plan, and what is the worst thing that can happen, will help in avoiding such situations and will make sure you think through how to deal with them.

As a Scout Master, along with my military time, means that I think through the plan, and the worst case, almost automatically. I can't help it, it is too ingrained. It does not need to frighten you, just make you think through what could happen and how you can handle it.

Along with the Wilderness Survival merit badge pamphlet I recommended before, get the Emergency Preparedness one and the First Aid one. I like teaching these merit badges close together in time, as they are all connected and mutually supporting. Emergency preparedness will walk them through weighing the possibilities and preparing for them in a practical and logical way. It is suitable for kids, but works for adults as well. They are inexpensive, and I recommend them over many survival books out there. They are also small and easy to have with you. Just the process of stopping and reading them when you find yourself in such a situation will help to calm you and focus your mind. Drink some water, eat a snack to feed the brain, and you will find yourself becoming more calm and rational. Then you camp out unexpectedly, and make it out without too much risk.

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#283169 - 12/29/16 07:14 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: gonewiththewind]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Pre-trip planning would also have given them the info that the North Rim was closed.
Park Road Conditions & Closures
Quote:
Park Road Conditions & Closures
Direct-dial recording: call 928-638-7496

South Rim Road Conditions
Driving Directions to South Rim Grand Canyon National Park.

Updated: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - 11:01 am (Updated when road conditions change)

Caution: South Rim roads are snow-packed and icy from a major winter storm.

As of this update,
South Entrance Road is open.
Highway 64 (Desert View Drive - also called East Rim Drive) is open
Hermit Road (West Rim Drive) is open.
Both Desert View Drive and Hermit Road may be closed after dark - if hazardous driving conditions develop.
Call 928-638-7496 for updated road conditions recording.

(Unlike the North Rim, the South Rim remains open all year)

Call 928-638-7496 for current park road condition information recording.
Please drive with caution and at speeds appropriate to the road conditions.
Watch for deer and elk in the roadway.
You may also view the Arizona Dept of Transportation Road Conditions and Closures Map: http://www.az511.com/adot/files/traffic/ to learn where statewide road closures are.


North Rim Road Conditions

Driving Directions to North Rim Grand Canyon National Park.

Updated: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 6:00 pm (Updated when road conditions change)
* Highway 67 to the North Rim of the park is closed for the winter.
* The North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park is CLOSED FOR THE WINTER.

* The North Rim will open on May 15, 2017 for the 2017 Season


Call 928-638-7496 for current park road condition information recording.

* Please drive with caution and at speeds appropriate to the road conditions.
* Watch for deer in the roadway.


The South Rim was open, but that's not where they were. It took all of three minutes to find out that this time of year you had better be going to the South Rim.

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#283172 - 12/29/16 08:53 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: gonewiththewind]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: Montanero
So what went wrong?

They did not do a proper risk assessment, did not understand the environment they were going into. They made bad decisions against all of the existing indicators that they should not go to that area.

They could (and should) have left a trip plan with someone.

They could have invested in a satellite communications device.

They could (and should) have avoided the off limits areas to begin with.

They could have stayed on a main road which would make it less likely that they get stuck. This would also have eased the walk out for her, and the ability of rescuers to find them.

As in many of our discussions in this forum, there are some basic things that anyone should carry in their car, more for extreme weather conditions and travel in remote areas. We have numerous lists and recommendations that anyone out there can read at no cost. There is little entertainment value to the mundane task of being properly prepared.


"Could have, should have" are all good in hindsight and easy for people on this forum to pick apart. The real bottom line is that unless the person(s) already have a ETS mindset, they are not going to be doing risk assessments nor looking on this forum or any other before they travel. Unfortunately it takes a life in balance survival event such as this before people maybe learn from their mistakes.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#283175 - 12/29/16 09:04 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
My experience is that the overwhelming majority of folks who get into trouble in the wild are naive/inexperienced/ and unaware of the potential hazards nor are they informed as to the most elementary measures useful in forestalling problems. People with even basic knowledge and skills are seldom the focus of SAR operations.

I am fairly sure that most, if not all of us, have blundered at some point in our past and learned therefrom. That is certainly true for me - I am one fortunate dude.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#283176 - 12/29/16 09:27 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: Russ]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Russ
Pre-trip planning would also have given them the info that the park was closed.
North Rim Road Conditions
Quote:
North Rim Road Conditions

Driving Directions to North Rim Grand Canyon National Park.

Updated: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 - 6:00 pm (Updated when road conditions change)
* Highway 67 to the North Rim of the park is closed for the winter.
* The North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park is CLOSED FOR THE WINTER.

* The North Rim will open on May 15, 2017 for the 2017 Season
Call 928-638-7496 for current park road condition information recording.
* Please drive with caution and at speeds appropriate to the road conditions.
* Watch for deer in the roadway.
A bit of clarification is probably in order. When the NPS says the North Rim is "CLOSED", I think they mean that facilities are closed and roads are closed to vehicles. I don't believe they will bust you for simply going there, though they might ticket you for driving on a closed road. (hikermor or other please correct me if I'm wrong.)

In fact my understanding is that quite a few backcountry skiers visit the N Rim in winter. Case in point, some years back a friend of mine, a very fit and highly experienced backcountry traveler, skied in solo from where the road was closed to a N Rim trailhead, tied his skies to his pack and changed into hiking boots, and hiked down into the canyon and back up to the S Rim. My recollection is that he said the biggest problem was that the trails just below the rim were quite icy in spots and required careful walking. This is of course very different from inexperienced people driving down from Vegas, probably planning on taking a few selfies and then driving back to the casino.

I think the biggest thing these folks lacked was simple common sense. If the main road is closed for the winter, why in the world would any sane person think that a smaller forest road would be open?
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#283183 - 12/29/16 11:35 PM Re: Woman Ate Twigs And Drank "Melted Snow" ... [Re: AKSAR]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
According to the web site, the NR is essentially back county after December 1, when services, both concessionaire and NPS, are terminated. People can use the campground (no running water) and technically you need a back country permit. The roads are not plowed and the entrance station is not staffed. My understanding is that the road fro Jacobs Lake is not plowed at some point, which should be a clue to vehicle users.

I have not ski toured on the NR, but it would be sublime with the usual good snow cover. It really is beautiful country, with access to whole vast vistas of the Canyon which are essentially inaccessible to the South Rim hordes. My visits have been during the time when facilities were open.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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