I have read your posts twice, but they seem more like angry ranting and insults rather thoughtful analysis. What is your objective in posting this?

As I re-read the posts, I agree, you are correct in your analysis. That was not my intent, but that was the result.

I think I'm just punchy about reading YET ANOTHER article about some family "with outdoors training" getting themselves into a totally avoidable situation. In this case, putting their (apparently unknowing) child in danger in the process. How many times have we seen this identical story - blindly following a GPS, into wilderness areas, getting stuck with no communications? It's not like this is rare. It's reported all the time. Over and over. And the news reports tend towards anointing these people as heroes. I would rather see the news media point out all the idiotic moves that lead up to the situation.

Still, this is not an excuse for a rant, so I apologize for that. It's just frustrating. Don't people ever learn?

Hi,
What is the purpose of this forum?
What are the rules?
Its not something you're supposed to guess at and hope that you're right, right?






If everybody is responsible for their own safety,
this includes the rescuers too, right?

Therefore nobody puts rescuers at risk or in danger, only rescuers do that? Right?

Fair enough. From my perspective, the goal is to encourage people to do better, and I think we add value in that way. Words have the power to tear down or to build up, and I like to think that we in this forum are builders. However, we are in dire need of a facepalm emoticon to cover certain situations ...

I changed the subject line to reflect the latest and probably best information.

The article at "How rescuers found Karen Klein, th...nd Canyon" also indicates she melted snow and there is no mention of urine.

The article caused me to think they may have worked through their options logically. Unlike James Kim & family in Oregon (2006), she left early, rather than wait while her energy reserves were depleted just sitting there. She could have gone the other direction and found cell coverage, but she didn't, that's just the way it is.

There's a mindset that goes with being a triathlete; besides luck, that mental strength to not quit probably played a major role in her not dying in the snow.

So what went wrong? They trusted google maps and otherwise their pre-trip planning was minimal at best. So they got stuck on a backroad in the snow with no cell coverage. How often have we heard that one? This won't be the last time.

There are lots of things we can think of to critique, but bottom line is that with excellent physical conditioning and a bit of luck, she survived. Good on her.

So what went wrong?

They did not do a proper risk assessment, did not understand the environment they were going into. They made bad decisions against all of the existing indicators that they should not go to that area. They did not know the limits of cell phone coverage. They did not know the way back out once they did get stuck. They had no plan for such an eventuality. Overconfidence that was entirely unwarranted in this case.

They were not prepared with the proper equipment to extract their vehicle when it got stuck, and I am sure they were lacking in many other times most of us would consider essential.

They had no alternate means of communications, did not tell anyone where they were going or when to expect them back.

While she did have stamina and perseverance, she had reached the limits of that and was not even able to search the area around her to find the resources necessary to survive. Her physical fitness kept her alive, but it would not have for much longer. She had exhausted the one resource she did have.

What they could have done (other than just not making such a bad decision):

They had shelter (their car) which could have been improved significantly. With a fire they could have stayed warm and had plenty of water; which means they could have survived for up to about 3 weeks. With some food stocks that could have been extended for much longer.

With a fire they could have signaled for help. The Rangers in the parks are always on the lookout for smoke, and under decent weather conditions that smoke could have been seen from a great distance, drawing attention and investigation.

They could (and should) have left a trip plan with someone.

They could have invested in a satellite communications device.

They could (and should) have avoided the off limits areas to begin with.

They could have stayed on a main road which would make it less likely that they get stuck. This would also have eased the walk out for her, and the ability of rescuers to find them.

As in many of our discussions in this forum, there are some basic things that anyone should carry in their car, more for extreme weather conditions and travel in remote areas. We have numerous lists and recommendations that anyone out there can read at no cost. There is little entertainment value to the mundane task of being properly prepared. As Peter Kummerfeldt so accurately describes it: If you are prepared, the situation is an unexpected or unplanned night out and does not become a survival situation.

as has been stated, the simplest good preparation and sound decision making will avoid bad situations to begin with. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, though it is not as exciting.

Just a couple of foot notes to your good analysis:

The family was visiting Las Vegas and lived in Pennsylvania, a vastly different and more settled environment. I am speculating, but I'll wager they had no concept of how sparsely populated the North Rim country can be. While I'm at it, I will further speculate that they conceived of Arizona as a desert, which we all know to be hot, and did not realize that the only thing between the North Rim and the North Pole is a barbed wire fence....

Again I assume they flew to LV; hence they were driving a rental car which wouldn't have had any of the random bits and pieces that can be found in the typical family vehicle, often useful in odd situations. I am confident that my vehicle, parked outside, is better equipped for winter survival than their rental...

I'll bet the concept that a part of a hugely visited NP(6 million visitors in 2016) could be closed was utterly foreign. And, everyone has heard the stories about how hot the Grand Canyon is - you never hear about NR snowdrifts.

The notion that climatic conditions in the intermontane west have more to do with elevation than with latitude is foreign to many folks who have lived elsewhere.

My last trip to the NR was to participate is a "marathon." We were going from the NR to SR via the kaibab and bright Angel trails. We spent the night at the NR in early May, just after the facilities had opened for the season. Beginning our run, we dodged snowdrifts still on the trail. As we descended to phantom Ranch, the temps flirted with 100F..

The Canyon is wild and gorgeous, but it is rugged and wildly variable. If you venture there, you need to be ETS.

I have been in December and in June/July. I was surprised in the Summer how cold it can still get in Flagstaff (below freezing at night). In December there is a great deal of snow at altitude, but down in the canyon it was rather warm. You are right, their expectations and sense of what is "normal" were far from what they actually encountered.

I was just trying to articulate similar thoughts, hikermor.

It's easy to point out the simple things this family could have done better: Our family would likely have been better equipped to hunker down and wait for rescue. We would probably have filed a detailed travel plan with trusted people. We would have checked the weather forecast and asked for local advice, at least from our hotel staff. We probably wouldn't have left the car on foot, except maybe get a cell signal. (It sounds like the father and son walked almost as far as she did looking for that. Frankly, how could they know that in advance?) We would probably have built a fire to melt the frozen bottles of water we brought with us and signal for rescue.

BUT....Even though y'all practically live in my head, I can easily envision our family making similar mistakes and misjudgements to what this family did. We're not idiots but we don't know what we don't know.

We would have flown in and rented a car, and relied on GPS and cell phones. We would have made ourselves ETS being stuck in the desert or a while in a densely populated area. We'd likely give little (if any) thought to being caught in a snow storm in the middle of nowhere unless someone told us.

That's just the perception of the Grand Canyon we Easterners have grown-up with. Until now. Now I know. Hindsight is 20/20. Thank goodness they all survived!

I have seen -40F in Flag and i personally recorded an official -30F reading at Wupatki Nat'l Mon, about 3,000 feet lower than Flag. One Memorial Day weekend it was snowing in Flag and I was thinking "Good grief! I have seasonal rangers reporting for duty in about a week and they will be wearing short sleeve shirts..." Not to worry. Temps were very soon in the 80s and 90s....

It's country and conditions like that the get you in the habit of keeping a sleeping bag and a few other goodiesin the vehicle - always.