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#278433 - 01/02/16 08:47 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1578
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: bacpacjac
Great suggestions, Jeanette. Thanks! I haven't seen liquid castile soap, but know there are many fans of it on this forum. If I can use it for soap, shampoo AND toothpaste, I'm sold. Do you know if it works for dishes too?

Yes, it works on dishes too.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#278434 - 01/02/16 09:08 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Treeseeker]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1578
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: Treeseeker
You can get many of the items you mention in single use packets. Search for "travel size toiletries."

Deodorant and dental floss are available in single use packets.

Given she's hiking on a trail and the space and weight, deodorant may be more a luxury item. It's her call. The Flosscard I linked may work better.

Originally Posted By: Treeseeker
I haven't seen toothpaste in a single use packet, but you can get it in very small tubes. Here is a 0.6oz tube:

http://www.traveltoiletrykits.com/mm5/me...tegory_Code=ORL

The peppermint liquid castile soap will work as toothpaste and so much more. Given the space and weight, a multi purpose product would work better.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#278468 - 01/04/16 04:09 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
There's the waterless/disposable toothbrushes

http://www.colgateopticwhite.com/toothbrushes/wisp

standard disclaimers apply
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Uh ... does anyone have a match?

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#278485 - 01/04/16 09:57 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Mark_F]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1314
Back to the original topic of a GHB stove.

I see one very crucial point that has been missed by all in regards to alcohol stoves in cold weather. Before I get into that, Bacpacjac mentioned that the temps where she is (southern Ontario?) can drop down to -40C. Given that this area is one of the most densely populated areas of Canada, I really question why any person would be wanting to get home in -20C temps, let downwards to -40C. If you have never been out walking or ever holed up a tent or even in a car for any length of time at either of these temps, you don't have any idea of how cold it really is. For those metrically challenged, -40C is the same as -40F.

That aside, the crucial point with alcohol stoves is the very possible of severe risk of frostbite if you spill alcohol on your skin at these temperatures. Like gas or many other flammable liquids, alcohol does not freeze as water does. In fact, alcohol does not freeze until well past -80C. Chances are when using any small stove, you may have to fuel up the stove. If you spill alcohol directly on exposed skin you will get frostbite as that liquid alcohol is far below the freezing point. If you have gloves on and the it seeps through, you still have a very good chance of frostbite. The only thing that may save your skin is to keep that alcohol as warm as you possible in your packsack or in an inner coat pocket.

In extreme cold, your body and thinking is impaired to a degree and one slight second of inattention and could really compound an already tough, extreme cold situation. So for me, an alcohol stove is not worth the risk, but then again at those temps and in an urban environment, I would not be trying to make it home and would be seeking warm shelter in any numerable buildings in an urban area.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#278490 - 01/04/16 10:13 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5999
Loc: southern Cal
I will quote my brother in Bemidji, MN - "There is no bad weather, only bad clothes" - or equipment (my addition). In -40C, I, too, would seek warm shelter, roasting chestnuts on an open fire along with agreeable company, etc. If circumstances dictated that I travel, I would. I would probably go with a liquid petroleum stove. You just have to have the right stuff (and knowledge/skills/capabilities)for the environment in which you are operating.. In other words, you must be equipped to survive.
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Geezer in Chief

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#278503 - 01/05/16 12:04 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Teslinhiker]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3572
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
Back to the original topic of a GHB stove.

I see one very crucial point that has been missed by all in regards to alcohol stoves in cold weather. Before I get into that, Bacpacjac mentioned that the temps where she is (southern Ontario?) can drop down to -40C. Given that this area is one of the most densely populated areas of Canada, I really question why any person would be wanting to get home in -20C temps, let downwards to -40C. If you have never been out walking or ever holed up a tent or even in a car for any length of time at either of these temps, you don't have any idea of how cold it really is. For those metrically challenged, -40C is the same as -40F.

That aside, the crucial point with alcohol stoves is the very possible of severe risk of frostbite if you spill alcohol on your skin at these temperatures. Like gas or many other flammable liquids, alcohol does not freeze as water does. In fact, alcohol does not freeze until well past -80C. Chances are when using any small stove, you may have to fuel up the stove. If you spill alcohol directly on exposed skin you will get frostbite as that liquid alcohol is far below the freezing point. If you have gloves on and the it seeps through, you still have a very good chance of frostbite. The only thing that may save your skin is to keep that alcohol as warm as you possible in your packsack or in an inner coat pocket.

In extreme cold, your body and thinking is impaired to a degree and one slight second of inattention and could really compound an already tough, extreme cold situation. So for me, an alcohol stove is not worth the risk, but then again at those temps and in an urban environment, I would not be trying to make it home and would be seeking warm shelter in any numerable buildings in an urban area.


Agreed. Shelter. Shelter. Shelter.

We have hit -30C with windchill today, and you just tipped me over to the Esbit side of the argument. Thanks!
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#278516 - 01/05/16 04:39 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1314

One of the best, stark and almost brutal portrayals of a person almost freezing to death is the seminal Outside Online article with the sub title of The cold hard facts of freezing to death.. This was written just over 10 years ago but still very relevant and should be considered as required reading for anyone who ventures outdoors during the winter. Although I have read this many times over the years, it still hits me as a stark and graphic lesson of what can so easily happen.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#278522 - 01/05/16 12:25 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1145
Loc: Land O' Lakes & Rivers - MN, U...
This story, as with several others by Jack London, really had an affect on me as a boy. http://www.jacklondons.net/buildafire.html

I prefer a Coleman white gas one burner stove in really cold weather. I carry fire paste to put on the generator to get it to fire up. I do have an Esbit stove and a pot to melt snow in my trunk, but Esbit smells bad. Bic lighters are problematic in the cold, so matches and a ferro rod are a must.
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The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng

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#278523 - 01/05/16 12:48 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Teslinhiker]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3572
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker

One of the best, stark and almost brutal portrayals of a person almost freezing to death is the seminal Outside Online article with the sub title of The cold hard facts of freezing to death.. This was written just over 10 years ago but still very relevant and should be considered as required reading for anyone who ventures outdoors during the winter. Although I have read this many times over the years, it still hits me as a stark and graphic lesson of what can so easily happen.



Adding this to my day's reading list. Thanks John!
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
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#278524 - 01/05/16 01:22 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Byrd_Huntr]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3572
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Byrd_Huntr
This story, as with several others by Jack London, really had an affect on me as a boy. http://www.jacklondons.net/buildafire.html

I prefer a Coleman white gas one burner stove in really cold weather. I carry fire paste to put on the generator to get it to fire up. I do have an Esbit stove and a pot to melt snow in my trunk, but Esbit smells bad. Bic lighters are problematic in the cold, so matches and a ferro rod are a must.


Build a Fire is one of my all-time favourites, Byrd. My grandparents had a copy on their shelf, along with more London and other classics, and they really fired my imagination as a kid.

I do use a gas stove for camping - especially during the winter. We have dug out the camp stoves at home during power failures before. It's seems like the best solution - but I just can't see carrying one around on a daily basis, for just in case.

This bag is for urban-suburban adventures. It is used for quick planned lunches and snack breaks on local trails, emergency snow melting, etc. This isn't a middle of nowhere bag, unless I throw it in the trunk for a long road trip, but I'd update a lot more than just my stove if that was the case. wink

I started using a simple alcohol stove a year or two ago, and I do like it, but I think I'm going to stick to ESBIT for my primary stove in this kit. Honestly, as silly as it sounded until I read John's reminder above about the risk of a spill freezing your skin, carrying liquid or gas fuel has always made me nervous. Personally, I think the convenience and cost are outweighed by the weight, the hassel of keeping the fuel warm, and risks of leakage, frostbite, tipovers, etc.

I've used my ESBIT and US GI canteen stoves almost exclusively for the last few years. With a windscreen, the only problems I've ever had were stubborn old fuel tabs that weren't sealed well and wouldn't burn well, and frozen hands that couldn't work a BIC lighter. (FYI - You can light hexi/triox cubes with a ferro rod if you break them up a bit. Adding a little dab of hand sanitizer will help speed up the process if you're really cold.)

So, I've decided to ditch the alchy stove in this kit. An alcohol stove is so easy to improvise in an urban emergency, if we really needed one. Instead, I'm working on a little mod to turn my ESBIT stove into a little firebox-type stove, so it'll work better with wood if we do get caught on the trail.

Thanks for all your help and advice on this guys. I appreciate the guidance!
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

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