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#278202 - 12/26/15 01:04 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bws48]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Thanks so much, BWS!!
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#278203 - 12/26/15 01:07 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: M_a_x]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: M_a_x
In Germany they recommend to use it only in well ventilated areas and suggest to refrain from using it indoors. I take this as itīs not considered save to do so.


Agreed. Outside is best, unless you've got good ventilation. It wouldn't burn for long, so similar risk as a chaffing dish, maybe? Better safe than sorry, me thinks, so a backyard, front step, balcony, beside the snowed-in car are the target burn locations in my books.
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#278204 - 12/26/15 01:13 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: EMPnotImplyNuclear]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: EMPnotImplyNuclear
Originally Posted By: M_a_x
In Germany they recommend to use it only in well ventilated areas and suggest to refrain from using it indoors. I take this as itīs not considered save to do so.


There is a lot of truth in this,
caution is warranted,
burning produces carbon monoxide,
so you need to ventilate,
have stove on stable surface,
away from curtains ,
away from pets,
don't leave fire unattended,
don't drink alcohol or stuff like that,
keep children away from stove,
use carbon monoxide / smoke detector,
have fire extinguisher ready,
...
there is risk to everything
and the cheapest legal pants smile
is to say don't take the risk at all
easier than convincing people knowitalls to take precautions
but if you take a few simple precautions risk can be minimized




This is what a book on wood/coal... cookstoves has to say about ventilation
Originally Posted By: http://www.pciaonline.org/files/Test-Results-Cookstove-Performance.pdf#page=69

Figure 20 - CO and average PM level reduction by ventilation
Closed Kitchen CO Average (ppm) 54
Hole in Roof CO Average (ppm) 18 reduction of 67%
Window and Hole in Roof CO Average (ppm) 14 reduction of 75%
Door Open CO Average (ppm) 1 reduction of 97%

Kitchen Dimensions:
10 ft (3 m) wide X 8 ft (2.4 m) deep X 6 ft (1.8 m) high X
8 ft (2.4 m) peak
Door: 2 ft (0.6 m) X 6 ft (1.8 m)
Window: 11 in (0.28 m) X 14 in (0.36 m)
Hole in Roof: 9.8 in (0.25 m) X 7.9 in (0.2 m)
Stove height: 2 ft. (0.6 m)

Book also has a Cookstove Safety Ratings worksheet


This is short preview of article that takes a closer look emissions from camping stoves in a tent sized space

Stoves, Tents and Carbon Monoxide - Deadly or Not? Part 5: Laboratory Measurements for Solid Fuels - Backpacking Light

I don't expect any surprises smile
burning produces emissions,
too much fuel burns more dirty,
pot sitting in flames produces more emissions,
...
you need to ventilate

update:
Originally Posted By: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning#Signs_and_symptoms

Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.


Originally Posted By: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning#Causes

Concentration Source
0.1 ppm Natural atmosphere level (MOPITT)
0.5 to 5 ppm Average level in homes
5 to 15 ppm Near properly adjusted gas stoves in homes
100 to 200 ppm Exhaust from automobiles in the Mexico City central area
5,000 ppm Exhaust from a home wood fire
7,000 ppm Undiluted warm car exhaust without a catalytic converter
30,000 ppm Afterdamp following an explosion in a coal mine







Thanks EMP. Agreed - there is always risk. I tipped my alcohol stove over on the trail the other day when I set my kettle on it. Could have been a forest fire if I hadn't taken precautions before lighting it. Because I did, the half ounce of fuel just burned out harmlessly on the muddy ground in a minute or so. Had that happened on the kitchen counter..... necessary precautions are important.
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#278205 - 12/26/15 02:49 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
Nomad Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 464
Loc: Just wandering around.
It is my understanding that alcohol stoves are banned in US National Parks and forests because of the spill danger. You can't put it out and you can't easily see the flame.
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#278206 - 12/26/15 03:13 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Nomad]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Nomad
It is my understanding that alcohol stoves are banned in US National Parks and forests because of the spill danger. You can't put it out and you can't easily see the flame.




That's true about the flames. It's hard to see unless it's dark. Alcohol stoves made me nervous for a long time, partially for this reason, and I haven't completely shaken that. (Probably why I'm still so attached to my Esbit stove.) They deserve respect, that's for sure.

EDIT: The Esbit stove and my new windscreen both work as pot holders for the alcohol stove, and after my tip-over last week, I intend to use one every time. (And I'm working on a more efficient stove for this reason.)


Edited by bacpacjac (12/26/15 03:37 AM)
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#278207 - 12/26/15 04:34 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Nomad]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6473
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Nomad
It is my understanding that alcohol stoves are banned in US National Parks and forests because of the spill danger. You can't put it out and you can't easily see the flame.


Are you sure about that? I am unaware of any such comprehensive ban and I have been working (and playing occasionally)in US National Parks since 1956 and I am unaware of any such blanket ban. During periods of high fire danger, a ban of this nature would be in effect but it would cover all open flame, not just alcohol.

You definitely do have to watch those flames, which are hard to see during the day....
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#278215 - 12/26/15 05:31 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
Chisel Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1154
Quote:
That's true about the flames. It's hard to see unless it's dark.


Don't quote me on this , but I think that adding a little salt to the alcohol should give some yellow color to the flame.

Worth trying.

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#278216 - 12/26/15 05:36 PM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: Chisel]
Chisel Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1154

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#278221 - 12/27/15 12:10 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: bacpacjac]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Great idea< Chisel! We do this at Scout campfires, but I never thought about trying it with the alcohol stove. Smart!
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#278224 - 12/27/15 12:45 AM Re: Esbit or Alcohol Stove for GHB [Re: hikermor]
Nomad Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 464
Loc: Just wandering around.
Originally Posted By: hikermor

Are you sure about that? I am unaware of any such comprehensive ban and I have been working (and playing occasionally)in US National Parks <snip> [/quote]

You are correct. I hunted around through the regulations and see no such rule. However I also have worked for the NFS and others and was repeatedly told they were banned. I do see that alcohol stoves are banned in some specific forests but it appears randomly enforced.

Again I learn the lesson to check my sources before repeating what I am told. Even if it comes from a "reliable" source.
Thanks for the correction.

Nomad
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