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#276136 - 08/08/15 05:36 PM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Treeseeker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/12
Posts: 181
Loc: California
ICE

Instead of using loose ice cubes, fill used plastic bottles with water (not quite full), leave the cap loose and put in the freezer until frozen. Then tighten the cap and you can now store sideways if you wish. Then after the ice melts you have a bottle of pure water.

I know they say you shouldn't use old plastic bottles that have contained anything with sugar in them since some sugars seep into the plastic and later promote bacterial growth. However these bottles are going to be frozen so little bacteria is going to grow.

I store a number of these in my freezers since they slow down the warming of the freezer after a power outage. They are also handy when you need an ice chest for the day.

MEDS

For your meds supply as Jeanette mentioned some insurance companies will refill early even though they say 30 days. When you think about it, they have to since you can't wait until you take your last dose, to apply for a refill (for critical drugs). Sometimes refills, take a week or more, if the refills are out and they need to contact the Dr for a new prescription.

I have had several insurance companies that will allow refills 7 days in advance of the 30 days.

So, if you are systematic, you can easily build up a 60 day supply or even more. I set an calendar alarm after each refill for 23 days ahead, so I can get the next refill.

Granted it is a pain, but it can work.

Even if you can get 90 day supplies, your quantity is constantly dwindling until just before refill time you have only a week's supply.


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#276137 - 08/08/15 07:05 PM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: Phaedrus]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3425
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
One of the best diabetes clinics in the entire world has basically "cured" even very advanced cases with just diet.


Was that true for Type One diabetes or only for Type Two?

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#276139 - 08/08/15 07:53 PM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: Treeseeker]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 450
Loc: Somerset UK
Originally Posted By: Treeseeker
ICE

Instead of using loose ice cubes, fill used plastic bottles with water (not quite full), leave the cap loose and put in the freezer until frozen. Then tighten the cap and you can now store sideways if you wish. Then after the ice melts you have a bottle of pure water.

I know they say you shouldn't use old plastic bottles that have contained anything with sugar in them since some sugars seep into the plastic and later promote bacterial growth. However these bottles are going to be frozen so little bacteria is going to grow.

I store a number of these in my freezers since they slow down the warming of the freezer after a power outage. They are also handy when you need an ice chest for the day.




This is an excellent way of delaying the defrosting of a freezer during a power outage, and the water should be drinkable if consumed promptly after defrosting.

However in the specific case of preserving insulin or other perishable medications, then I can not recommend it. Any reasonable number of such frozen bottles of water would soon be depleted, and each time the bottles are handled or transferred from the freezer to wherever the insulin is kept this involves opening of doors and admission of heat.
Initially the bottles will be at well below freezing point and could freeze the insulin and spoil it.
My suggestion of large volumes of loose ice cubes can NEVER go below freezing, and will remain very close to freezing until almost all the ice has melted.

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#276142 - 08/08/15 11:25 PM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: adam2]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
large volumes of loose ice cubes can NEVER go below freezing,


Ice taken from the freezer has to be the same temperature as the inside of the freezer. When you remove it from the freezer, it will not start to melt until the interior of the cube gets up to 32 degrees.

I would advise testing any setup with an out of date bottle of insulin or an empty bottle refilled with water and a thermometer. Another way to test it would be to get one of these weather stations with a remote thermometer that keeps track of the high & low temperature and put the sensor in a plastic bag.

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#276144 - 08/09/15 03:51 AM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: Teslinhiker]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
Originally Posted By: JeffMc

I have to also wonder how all the schizophrenics, severe depressives, others with various medical conditions, and drug addicts, who require medication not to maintain their lives, but to sustain their ability to function effectively, might fare in a total collapse. Darwin can be a harsh master.


Obviously you are not completely familiar with Darwin but instead attempt to bend his theories to support your views which only serves to derail this interesting topic and thread.

You may want to read this thead.


I regret that you seem to have taken offense at my comments. I am at least passingly familiar with the main concepts of evolutionary biology, including Darwin's and later developments in that field.

However, in this case I was not making a formal biological science reference to Darwin, nor was I attempting to "bend his theories" to support my "views." Rather, I was merely referencing the popular culture's Darwin "meme" to the effect that not everyone survives. I thought that would have been apparent from the context, but perhaps it wasn't.

As for my "views," I am not sure what you think they may be, since what I wrote was a question, not a statement. Nor am I sure how a question pertaining to people with varying degrees or types of pharmacological dependence might fare in a total collapse is somehow off-topic or serves to "derail" this thread. But if it is or does, that was not my intent, and I apologize.

Lastly, I did read the thread you suggested, and particularly your comments therein. I believe my posts since returning to this forum have had an acceptable S/N ratio, are based on real-world experiences and training and not "fluff" or internet hearsay, and have been moderate and respectful in tone. But, ultimately, that's for others to judge.

Thank you for your comments.

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#276146 - 08/09/15 05:01 AM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: JeffMc]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1413
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Originally Posted By: JeffMc

I regret that you seem to have taken offense at my comments. I am at least passingly familiar with the main concepts of evolutionary biology, including Darwin's and later developments in that field.


Hey Jeff, no offense at your comments.

Way back in the early 1990's, my longtime GF at the time, wrote her Masters thesis on Darwin's theories and how the modern world has challenged, debunked many of those theories and also how many of them have stood the test of time despite better technological studies. As her thesis was researched and written before the dawn of the internet, we spent untold hours in libraries and sitting through many late hours at home, researching and reading through too many old and newer books in regards to Darwin's theories for her thesis paper. So needless to say, I have a far more better understanding (but obviously not at the Masters level) of Darwin. So when I read comments that allude to the cliche or memes of "Darwin award", "Darwin candidate" etc, I get a bit riled as most people have no idea what Darwin's theories were but use them way out of context.

Sorry that I jumped the gun and to conclusions. Hopefully this interesting thread continues!

PS. Darwin was a very sick man for many years of his life. Despite not having the benefit of modern medicine as we do, he still lived to the age of 73. Makes you wonder if we depend too much on modern medicine and the effect of not having easy access to it in a long term disaster situation would show any measurable higher death rate statistics.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#276147 - 08/09/15 05:29 AM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: Teslinhiker]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
No sweat. You are, of course, correct. Darwinian evolution does not address the survival odds of individuals within our species, despite the "Darwin Awards" and all that.

I can relate to your experience. It can eventually get pretty annoying when you see people constantly and cavalierly misusing or ignorantly mangling something you have acquired some expertise in. Wasn't Darwin himself also rather taken aback by some of the uses and debate surrounding his seminal work? I can't remember, but I think I recall something about that.

My own related personal pet peeve is with those who attempt to over-generalize the theories of evolutionary biology outside their proper realm of biology and impose them upon the social sciences, i.e., as so-called "social darwinism."

As to our dependence on modern medicine, my thought is that many more may suffer some impact on their quality of life than will actually die from its absence after a total collapse.

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#276150 - 08/09/15 08:54 AM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: UTAlumnus]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 450
Loc: Somerset UK
Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
Quote:
large volumes of loose ice cubes can NEVER go below freezing,


Ice taken from the freezer has to be the same temperature as the inside of the freezer. When you remove it from the freezer, it will not start to melt until the interior of the cube gets up to 32 degrees.

I would advise testing any setup with an out of date bottle of insulin or an empty bottle refilled with water and a thermometer. Another way to test it would be to get one of these weather stations with a remote thermometer that keeps track of the high & low temperature and put the sensor in a plastic bag.


In the case of ice taken from a freezer you are correct. That is why I suggested that bottles of water that have been frozen are not ideal for keeping insulin.

However my original post specifically refers to ice from an ice cube making machine. This is not the same as a freezer.

Ice from an ice machine is at very close to freezing point and starts melting virtually as soon as it is made. If this ice be placed in a large insulated container as I suggested, then it will melt very slowly. Depending on the size of the container, the degree of insulation, and the ambient temperature, some of the ice should last weeks, maybe even months.

Ice made and used as I describe will maintain a well insulated container a very close to freezing point until most of the ice has melted. It can never go detectably below freezing point.

To melt a kilo of ice at freezing point into a kilo of water at freezing point takes about 90 watt hours.
To melt a 1000 kilos of ice therefore takes about 90KWH.
An extremely well insulated container, at freezing point within and located in a cool basement, might have a heat gain of 1KWH a day, so it would take about 90 days for all the ice to melt.
The making of 1000 kilos of ice initially is non trivial, hence the need for an ice maker. Whilst times are normal, about 11 kilos of ice will need replacing each day to keep the container full.
All this entails considerable cost and trouble, but might be worth it for someone whose life depends on insulin or other perishable medicine.
Another option would be an ultra high efficiency DC refrigerator and a PV system to power it. If human life depends on refrigeration it should be duplicated.

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#276153 - 08/09/15 07:06 PM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: adam2]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
You guys appear to know a lot about this, so I have some questions for you.

I've looked into high-end ice chests, such as the Yeti brand, for car camping, etc. But their prices ranges up to several hundred dollars for something I would only use on infrequent longer campouts, and I already have several mass market brand coolers that are usually adequate for my needs.

Beyond the usual things like keeping them full, limiting opening frequency, and using block or dry ice, what might practically be done to extend their range?

I plan on getting some Reflectix insulation (basically bubblewrap faced with foil on both sides) for a different project. Would it be worthwhile making a cooler over-jacket out of that? Or is most of the loss incurred by air leakage and opening? If so, would it make more sense to add a gasket and maybe some means of clamping the lid down tighter?

Any ideas appreciated. Thanks for sharing your expertise!

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#276154 - 08/09/15 07:12 PM Re: A Total Collapse [Re: RNewcomb]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
All these ideas may really help insulin-dependent diabetics and others who require refrigerated medications plan for dealing with an emergency, so thanks!

Here's what the FDA says about insulin storage in a disaster:

"After a disaster, patients in the affected area may not have access to refrigeration. According to the product labels from all three U.S. insulin manufacturers, it is recommended that insulin be stored in a refrigerator at approximately 36°F to 46°F. Unopened and stored in this manner, these products maintain potency until the expiration date on the package.

Insulin products contained in vials or cartridges supplied by the manufacturers (opened or unopened) may be left unrefrigerated at a temperature between 59°F and 86°F for up to 28 days and continue to work. However, an insulin product that has been altered for the purpose of dilution or by removal from the manufacturer’s original vial should be discarded within two weeks.

Note: Insulin loses some effectiveness when exposed to extreme temperatures. The longer the exposure to extreme temperatures, the less effective the insulin becomes. This can result in loss of blood glucose control over time. Under emergency conditions, you might still need to use insulin that has been stored above 86°F.

You should try to keep insulin as cool as possible. If you are using ice, avoid freezing the insulin. Do not use insulin that has been frozen. Keep insulin away from direct heat and out of direct sunlight.

When properly stored insulin becomes available again, the insulin vials that have been exposed to these extreme conditions should be discarded and replaced as soon as possible."
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/EmergencyPreparedness/ucm085213.htm

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