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#275587 - 06/29/15 06:54 AM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Brangdon]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1913
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Brangdon
You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK.

There's probably some statistic like "You're 100x more likely to be shot on the street than in prison". But that doesn't mean I would want to live in prison.

But that's just speculation. Back to the point you made ...
If you're only 4x more likely to be murdered in the US, but 35x more likely to be shot dead (which certainly would be considered "murder"), you must have a much higher likelyhood of being murdered with something other than a gun in the UK (to make up the difference between 4x and 35x). So there has to be some equally shocking statistic that doesn't look favorable for the UK, like "you're 26x more likely to be murdered with a knife in the UK than in the US", or something like that to balance that area between 4x and 35x. Otherwise the statistics would be "You're 35x more likely to be shot dead in the US" and ALSO "you're 35x more likely to be murdered in the US". So what is the "and more staggeringly" balancing statistic for murder in the UK? Knives? Clubs? One has to be very careful when cherry picking statistics, else someone will call you on it and ask what other statistic you're hiding.

And while that 35x number may seem "staggering" as you say, it could be that a large chunk of that is because people in the US can DEFEND themselves against criminals by using a gun. Something that is not allowable in the UK (or only under very limited scenarios). So when you're shooting the bad guys to defend yourself, sure, your hit count goes up, but it's a GOOD hit count. It doesn't sound so bad when you say, "CRIMINAL VIOLENT ATTACKERS are 35x more likely to be shot dead in the US than in the UK". It actually sounds rather good, I think.

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#275588 - 06/29/15 09:24 AM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: brandtb]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 1983
Loc: Great Plains
In the US intent has a lot to do with it. For example, if you're driving your work truck around from job site to job site it's normal to have a bunch of tools with you. However, if get pulled over because you caused a cops "antenna to go up" and you have a crow bar, bolt cutters and duct tape in your trunk you may be charged with possession of burglary tools. It depends on the context and circumstances.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#275590 - 06/29/15 02:49 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Phaedrus]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2810
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
In the US intent has a lot to do with it. For example, if you're driving your work truck around from job site to job site it's normal to have a bunch of tools with you. However, if get pulled over because you caused a cops "antenna to go up" and you have a crow bar, bolt cutters and duct tape in your trunk you may be charged with possession of burglary tools. It depends on the context and circumstances.


Of course the tricky part of being equipped to survive is many of us carry all those things in our vehicles smile I have things like duct tape, rope, etc. Would probably look like a kidnapper or something. I try to carry pictures of each camping trip showing some of that gear in use to help show innocence.

And not just the police but $big insurance company$ who said you don't need all those things in your vehicle so we refuse to cover them and if you fight us we'll just say if your carrying all that stuff just to drive to work then you must be using it for work so we don't cover it in that case anyway. Needless to say I'll never get insurance through Allstate again.

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#275591 - 06/29/15 02:54 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Phaedrus]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1613
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
In the US intent has a lot to do with it. For example, if you're driving your work truck around from job site to job site it's normal to have a bunch of tools with you. However, if get pulled over because you caused a cops "antenna to go up" and you have a crow bar, bolt cutters and duct tape in your trunk you may be charged with possession of burglary tools. It depends on the context and circumstances.


As you said, intent has a lot to do with it. In California, there has to be an intent to commit a burglary along with the possession.

http://www.shouselaw.com/possession-burglary-tools.html

This is really an add-on charge. If you get caught with attempting burglary, then you'd receive an additional charge of possession. The trick is try not to burglarize people. (Also, never consent to a search, but that is another topic.)
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#275592 - 06/29/15 04:21 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: haertig]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1201
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Originally Posted By: haertig
Originally Posted By: Brangdon
You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK.

If you're only 4x more likely to be murdered in the US, but 35x more likely to be shot dead (which certainly would be considered "murder"), you must have a much higher likelyhood of being murdered with something other than a gun in the UK (to make up the difference between 4x and 35x). So there has to be some equally shocking statistic that doesn't look favorable for the UK, like "you're 26x more likely to be murdered with a knife in the UK than in the US", or something like that to balance that area between 4x and 35x.
Agreed. It's the total figures, regardless of means, that are significant here, not the figures broken down by weapon. That said, I did manage to find a break-down by means here. Briefly, "sharp instruments" is the biggest single means, at about 35% of all murders. According to that, there isn't a worse peak of something else. That does include broken bottles, etc, and they are also from a different year, but on the face of it, the figures don't reconcile. That's why my conclusion was, "Don't take the initial post's figures at face value" rather than, "The initial post's figures are wrong."

Quote:
One has to be very careful when cherry picking statistics, else someone will call you on it and ask what other statistic you're hiding.
I'm not hiding anything. I linked to my source, and the source contained more links to government statistics. I'm genuinely curious as to the state of play.

Quote:
And while that 35x number may seem "staggering" as you say, it could be that a large chunk of that is because people in the US can DEFEND themselves against criminals by using a gun.
First, do you realise blue part were not my words? I was quoting the conclusion from the linked page. (Maybe I should have left out the "staggering" part, because it seems like a distraction from the overall rates for violent crime and murder, but I didn't want to quote too selectively.)

Second, the figures already exclude justifiable homicide. It says that in the part I quoted. So, no, these aren't the "good" shootings.
_________________________
Quality is addictive.

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#275595 - 06/29/15 07:35 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: dougwalkabout]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
Inappropriate.

That's truth. Everyone must surrender their kitchen knifes too according to that. The next step: "Surrender all of your backyard rocks and sticks!"

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#275596 - 06/29/15 10:05 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: brandtb]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 1983
Loc: Great Plains
As a chef I'm stunned that they found any high profile culinary folks that would endorse this. A sharp point is integral to the way a knife is used. They would be apoplectic if they saw what I carry to work every day! whistle
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#275597 - 06/29/15 11:11 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: brandtb]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 958
Loc: Channeled Scablands
The crown has always liked their subjects disarmed.

"From this, it can be determined that of the roughly 1,000 Jacobites killed at Culloden, no more than one fifth carried a sword"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Culloden

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#275599 - 06/30/15 03:55 AM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: brandtb]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2580
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Gentlemen, the lack of civil and respectful discussion in this thread is truly embarrassing. It's a damned shame to watch a once-brilliant forum devolve to the level of the rest of the Internet.

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#275611 - 07/01/15 12:33 AM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: brandtb]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 958
Loc: Channeled Scablands
English rules about self defense and arms gave rise to the USA's 2nd amendment.

When some were not allowed knives, swords etc. and then abused by government and others, the unfairness of it was not lost or forgotten by the US's founders. Many founders were Scots etc.

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