2nd Amendment advocates push to repeal switchblade, other knife laws

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/...aled-in-states/

Once overshadowed by the hot-button gun rights debate, laws restricting knife sales and possession are the new "second front" in the battle to preserve Second Amendment rights.

The issue has gained more attention in recent years -- most recently in Baltimore, where obscure knife laws have surfaced at the center of the Freddie Gray death case. Well before that case, though, the nonprofit advocacy group Knife Rights has been steadily working in state capitals across the country to roll back or repeal longstanding knife bans and restrictions.

And they've seen a string of successes.

“We’ve introduced the Second Amendment to a significant number of people who never considered it their amendment,” said Doug Ritter, who founded Knife Rights in Arizona in 2009.

The group argues that possessing and carrying any kind of blade is, as with guns, a right enshrined in the Constitution. They've deployed that argument to, so far, help 10 states wipe most -- if not all -- knife restrictions from the books. It also has successfully advocated for so-called preemption laws in eight states, blocking local jurisdictions from circumventing state law with their own, stricter regulations.

Not all repeals are the same -- some leave laws against switchblades like stilettos on the books. But others are comprehensive, like in Oklahoma and Maine, which just legalized switchblades, in March and April respectively.

Aren't there some disadvantages in arguing for knife rights via the Second Amendment?

1. We want tools, not just knives. We still won't be able to carry a pry bar in some places. I'd rather be able to carry a pry bar and a fixed Mora knife than a switch blade, an auto, or a "combat knife."

2. This strategy may deepen the impression of the general public that knife = weapon. That will result in a push back. Also, if we argument that the Second Amendment extends to knives, then it also extends to swords, halberds, spears, etc. It's hard to see how the American public will accept that. America is a gun culture, not a medieval weaponry culture. People will accept conceal-carried guns before they accept a morningstar.

3. Finally, we don't want the same sort of gun restrictions to be applied to knives: no knives near schools or federal buildings. Employers might be motivated to create "knife free zones." Stores might be pressured to start a "no knives" policy when they just want to make a buck.

All good points Bingley.

The only justification I've ever seen attempted for knife restrictions have been based on their potential use as weapons. In my mind the Second Amendment is the perfect way to attack those sorts of restrictions in the United States.

I would prefer that knives be classed as a tool that could pressed into use as a weapon. Not the other way around. I don't want to need a permit to carry a pocket knife...

BOATMAN
John

Knives are tools but in the eyes of the law, protecting them as an "arm" protected by the 2nd Amendment is probably wise. I am not going to second-guess DR or Knife Rights on their strategy with regard to reversing knife laws.

Even if stuff like knives were legally classified as tools, that wouldn't automatically stop laws from restricting the use of your tools. I think having one of the Bill of Rights backing up one of your freedoms is generally better than not.

The fact that we're even having this discussion is proof the Second Amendment is a weak piece of legislation. It's been chipped away so much that it doesn't mean much anymore. We're sitting here talking about the right to carry a little blade that's a few inches. I wonder what folks from 100 years ago would think of what our society has become.

By the way, what pisses me off even more than knife legislation is the laws on portable gas cans. I hadn't bought a gas can in years. I went to Walmart to buy a gas can. I spent 10 minutes trying to figure it out. I failed. Then, I spent 5 more minutes thinking of ways to "re-engineer" the thing.

Bottom line, it seems like a collosal waste of time to try to reason with an adult who actually thinks these oppressive laws are a good idea. However, I will continue to $upport those who do take on the fight.

Not to mention the government mandated "safety" features on propane bottles (the 20lb kind for your BBQ grill out back). They now have some kind of float inside that supposedly protects you. But those floats always freeze up here in Colorado and no gas comes out. So people around here end up banging on the tanks with rocks, kicking them, and dropping them from heights to try to jar the float loose. Sounds so much "safer" to me! BTW, I'm a fan of the "turn the tank upside down and drop it on it's head from 6 inches up" method myself. Wonderful government regulations...

+1

Put the separate air vent and old flexible rubber discharge back. They worked, didn't break, and then someone just HAD to fix it!

Doug's in the media again. This time with an AP article on the hodge podge of knife/weapons laws and definitions. The article is fallout from the Freddie Gray debacle.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/varying-knife-laws-can-confuse-across-state-local-lines/ar-BBjUh1u

The large variation in knife carry laws in any given state just drives me nuts. Keep doing the good work, Doug!

Doug, how is your New York case going?

Awaiting a ruling by the Appeals Court on the standing issue.

Doug R - Great job to keep pushing for freedom.
It's very important in America now.
Keep up the great work.

Bingley - IF you carry a knife with a sharp point, then someone in the General Public will perceive it to be a "weapon". Whether or not you intend this, somebody will see it that way. BUT a good practical solution is to get a survival knife that has a sharp edge, but it does not have a sharp point. Such models exist. Such a knife is much more likely to be perceived as a Survival Tool and not a weapon.

good luck!
Pete

You'll have to qualify that statement. It depends on the location. In any urban of California, any sharp edged object is going to be perceived as a weapon. People act like I just pulled out a lightsaber when I pull out my little 3-inch blade, and it turns a big conversation every time. It's pathetic, but that's where society is.

My mode of operation is to get the legal knife I want and conceal it. I don't even pull out my knife in public to open up a box if I can use something else (e.g., keys or a strong pen).

Careful, carrying a concealed knife in CA may be a problem. Where specifically in CA is it recommended to carry your knife concealed? I carry my locking folder (BM 940 or 710 depending) clipped to my right front pocket so that it is visible and not concealed.

OT backstory: Shortly after buying the 940 I had an opportunity to meet one of Kern County's finest and found myself on the receiving end of a Terry Search. The deputy found the knife visually and left it clipped in my pocket. If the knife or manner of carry were illegal or questionable I'd have found out at that point.
(The reason for the stop was bogus, but suffice to say I left the scene driving my own vehicle with no ticket, summons or warning. "Sorry for taking your time". I racked it up to s**t happens.

In California, it's legal to carry a folding knife concealed. Open carrying a folding knife would be unusual here, and I personally have never seen anybody do that. You must carry a fixed blade open (e.g., knife sheath on belt).

http://www.shouselaw.com/california-knife-laws.html



If the knife is inside the pocket with the clip outside, then that's considered concealed, especially if your shirt falls over the knife at any time. By the way, when I'm confused about what's legal, I prefer to consult a lawyer, not a police officer.

Thanks, excellent info at the link. I recalled the open carry aspect, but forgot it applied to fixed blades.

"If the knife is inside the pocket with the clip outside, then that's considered concealed, especially if your shirt falls over the knife at any time. By the way, when I'm confused about what's legal, I prefer to consult a lawyer, not a police officer."

Thanks for clarifying that.
I had a mistaken impression - I thought that type of carry with a folding knife was "open". I appreciate the update.

Pete

This is one reason I like to carry a multitool (Wave). It is much easier to convince fellow workers that it is more of a tool than a weapon (because it is, basically)

I just used a hacksaw to cut the spout just before that stupid bulge thing. Works fine. Cap still fits the top.

Plus I have 5 Scepters....

I hear you. However, I hate giving up ground on something that is perfectly legal.

Society's attitudes have really changed during my lifetime. When I was in middle school we played knife games, some rather dangerous, at every recess. Everybody carried a knife routinely. I think one kid brought his 22 to school for show and tell and actually avoided incarceration

Still, if I wanted a weapon, I would consider an aluminum softball bat or pepper spray, among other effective alternatives.

I'm probably a bit younger than you, hikermor, but I concur. I remember bringing my deer rifle to school for show-and-tell in middle school and the teacher was fine with it! The job I worked during HS and my first year of college was the same; my boss knew I was a "gun guy" and was considering the purchase of one he knew I had (a Ruger Mini-14), so he asked me if I would mind bringing it to work so he could check it out (!! ). So I did. Right there in the kitchen he was pointing it around.

Naturally even then small town SD was probably not the same as CA. But even here that would bring a SWAT team today.

Most of my youth was squandered in Dallas, Texas(not really part of the real Texas) and other places in the Midwest. But owning guns was "normal" then.even, I think, in California.

Whole lot of folks are younger than me - gets more so every day.......

When I went through middle school ('87-'89), the "students cannot have knives or other weapons" policy was already in place. The policy at that time did not apply to staff and faculty. The shop teacher had, and lent out to the students, a Buck 110 knife on his belt. And, the physics teacher brough in a pellet rifle to demonstrate concervation of momentum(IIRC, we determined it shot a 1 gram pellet at 900 fps).

When I went back to work at the school discrict as a TA (glorified babysitter) in '94 or '95 the policy had already changed to "nobody can have a knife or other weapon".

Now it's "nobody can sketch/bite their food into/ make pretend their hand is a knife or other weapon". I find this darly amusing considering the unholy ****storm that was street crime 20+ years ago compared to today.

IMHO, given the incredible lack of maturity of the student body in general, I remember as both a student and TA, I'm inclined to agree with the "No knives or weapons for students". OTOH, I think that if you can be trusted to effectively raise our kids, then you should be able to be trusted with a sharp tool.

Maybe with today's kids, but we all had knives in school and I graduated in 91. Kids threw punches at each other (one girl took down a teacher one time as well) but their knives always stayed in their pockets.

Bragging how everybody got into fights, but nobody got knifed is not a very convincing argument for maturity. Dropping a teacher is an even less convincing argument.

And, yes I know the difference between rough housing among friends and putting somebody, namely me, in the ER.

EDIT: OTOH, I don't remember many people getting knifed. I did lose a couple of classmates to gunfire though...

what I'm saying is fights happen weather knives are banned or not and having them didn't create any more fights or make them any worse. "weapon" bans don't help anything.