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#266197 - 12/30/13 11:05 PM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: benjammin]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
I've heard that drones are being seriously looked at for SAR applications in Alaska. I don't know any details, but I expect it is only a matter of time before we see this happening.

The USCG icebreaker Healy has experimented with using drones in addition to it's helicopter to find the best route through sea ice. The oil companies have also been experimenting with helicopter drones on the North Slope to do inspections of equipment that is difficult or dangerous to approach. Lots of potential uses besides military ones.
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"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
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#266198 - 12/30/13 11:36 PM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: Teslinhiker]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
This might be a good time to post a reminder here.
If there is an ongoing search, and they are short of search team members, please consider posting here. Maybe with a title like "Ongoing Search at XXX Needs Volunteers". It is quite possible that members of this forum might be able to assist. The OP needs to include specific details of the exact region where the problem is occurring, and contact phones would be excellent.

I can't do this one because I'm away on holidays. But I will keep it in mind in 2014, esp. if the region is in the SouthWest.

Personally, I am a little bit skeptical about the "crowd sourcing" thing. But open sourcing of these reaches to people with a background in wilderness survival is a whole different ballgame.

thanks,
Pete

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#266201 - 12/31/13 01:43 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: Pete]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Pete
This might be a good time to post a reminder here.
If there is an ongoing search, and they are short of search team members, please consider posting here. Maybe with a title like "Ongoing Search at XXX Needs Volunteers". It is quite possible that members of this forum might be able to assist. The OP needs to include specific details of the exact region where the problem is occurring, and contact phones would be excellent.... open sourcing of these reaches to people with a background in wilderness survival is a whole different ballgame.
Pete, while your intentions are good, for several reasons this doesn't always work out so well in practice.

There are some issues with using "walk ons" in searches. One big problem is sorting out (in a short time frame) those folks who really have some backcountry savvy and survival skills from those who only think they do. Without having spent time with a person in the field it is tough to get a good sense of their experience. A searcher who themselves become lost, hypthermic, injured, or exhausted is no longer part of the solution, but rather they have added to the problem.

Another problem is that even if people are capable of taking care of themselves in the backcountry, they may not understand basic search methods. For example, untrained searchers can misss important clues. Or they may inadvertantly obliterate those clues. Search teams train their members to not look for people, but rather to look for clues. The idea is that if you are looking for people, you might easily miss seeing a subtle clue, but if you are looking for clues you are unlikely to miss seeing a person. Trained searchers are also taught how to document and preserve clues. Those clues can be crucial to narrowing down the search area.

Yet another issue is that untrained people probably aren't accustomed to working in ICS, and may not understand the importance of following the instructions from the search incident management team, and reporting accurately what they did. This can make it difficult to systematically cover the search area. An example from a recent search illustrates this. A bunch of local folks who were untrained but knew the area well were helping. The Ops Section Chief gave them instruction as to which area to search. But the locals had their own ideas about where the lost person was likely to be, and deviated from their assigned area. Unknown to them, that area had already been thoroughly searched. Thus one area was searched multiple times, and Ops had to send yet another team to cover the unsearched area.

However, we can sometimes put walk on volunteers to good use. One example I can think of was an avalanche body recovery (a deeply buried snow machiner who wasn't wearing a beacon). It was a big slide and turned into a major probing operation lasting a couple of days. We checked to make sure they all had appropriate gear, and gave them a quick lesson in how a probe lines works. We then grouped them into teams with an experienced person in charge of each team.
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"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#266202 - 12/31/13 02:12 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: AKSAR]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I'm afraid I must second AKSAR's extremely cogent comments. That doesn't mean that walk ons can't be beneficial, but expect to serve in a supporting role.

SAR is definitely a team activity and it takes a while to develop teamwork, especially among strangers.

My introduction to SAR was an extensive search in extremely severe winter conditions. The operation was a hideous boondoggle from beginning to end, primarily because no one, from the sheriff on down, really knew what to do, or how to do it. About the best that could be said is that the repercussions from that event lead to steadily more competent SAR in the Tucson area. And that required a lot of team building, a prerequisite for operating in critical situations.
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#266206 - 12/31/13 02:56 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: AKSAR]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
I completely agree with both AKSAR and Hikermor.

Although I am not part of any SAR. Over the years, both my SO and I have helped and participated with SAR searches when they put the word out for help...which is not often around here as we have about 10 SAR teams in the area which provide mutual aid for each other.

All the times we have been out, after signing forms and then questioned and scrutinized on our skill levels and gear, we have been paired with SAR team members. On any search we follow their rules and protocol and stick with them at all times. Meaning no wandering off and looking on your own or thinking you know more then the SAR team. And yes, that does happen as AKSAR mentioned in his post.

If you ever decide to get involved with these searches, you must be in much better then average physical hiking shape as you can be out for hours in the hot summer sun to rain and cold, snow conditions on all kinds of different terrain. Also the requisite gear is a must and SAR ICS will check that you do have that gear before they let you out in the field.
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Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#266207 - 12/31/13 03:07 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: Teslinhiker]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
good points made ... but I see no problem with them.
pairing people up is probably a good idea.
the main problem appears to be the "conventional wisdom" that adding extra people as the search progresses is not worth the problems and difficulties. I can see why SAR teams have come to believe this. But by the same token, there are ways that things could be kept flexible if good comms are maintained with team members (incl. regular comms checks), and someone updates the overall navigational map (who-is-where). GPS systems and mobile radios have made this more practical.

we're looking at moving into an era of decreasing resources and budgets. creative solutions are needed, or lower success rates will need to be accepted. just my $0.02.

Pete


Edited by Pete (12/31/13 03:07 AM)

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#266208 - 12/31/13 04:38 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: AKSAR]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Now there's something I would be all too happy to help develop. Wonder if anyone's out there I could contract with.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#266211 - 12/31/13 04:49 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Pete

we're looking at moving into an era of decreasing resources and budgets. creative solutions are needed, or lower success rates will need to be accepted. just my $0.02.

Pete
I dare say you are correct in these statements. It seems to me that they make an excellent argument for affiliating with your local SAR organization before there is an emergency. Develop the relationships, build the team, and acquire capability.

Also, while it is true that exceptional physical stamina is highly desirable, it is not necessarily a mandatory prerequisite. Our organization has people who were not up to the more strenuous tasks and all of us were careful to make appropriate mission assignments. "A man has got to know his limitations" after all. I was impressed many times with the ability of a highly disparate group of people,with many varying capabilities, to come together and work productively toward a common, worthwhile goal.
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#266213 - 12/31/13 06:00 AM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: hikermor]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Originally Posted By: Pete
we're looking at moving into an era of decreasing resources and budgets. creative solutions are needed, or lower success rates will need to be accepted. just my $0.02.

Pete
I dare say you are correct in these statements. It seems to me that they make an excellent argument for affiliating with your local SAR organization before there is an emergency. Develop the relationships, build the team, and acquire capability.
Pete, you will also get "lower success rates" if the searchers don't know what they are doing.

Hikermor nailed it. If you are really interested, then hook up with a local team. Get some training, and let people get to know you and your capabilities. Most teams are always looking for good people who want to join.

And as Teslinhiker noted, teams usually have mutual aid arrangements (formal or informal) to help out other teams in the region.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#266214 - 12/31/13 12:59 PM Re: CrowdSourcing SAR Searches [Re: AKSAR]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Searching is a surprisingly subtle activity. As AKSAR put it,you are looking for clues,not just human size objects, and these are often not very obvious. A competent searcher must be focused and aware. It doesn't help if you are dehydrated, sore, distracted, etc. You will miss important stuff. This has been demonstrated way too many times.

when I am searching (or rather, when I was searching), I could always tell when I was alert and focused by the fact that I was also noting archaeological material. Archaeology is my profession and I have done a lot of archaeological survey - looking for traces of human activity in the landscape. This is an activity that is obviously closely related to SAR, and the same constraints apply. It is simply amazing what people can miss if they are distracted, disoriented, or confused.

Searching and SAR work are like most human activities. You get better with practice and experience, especially if guided by decent training. If your garden needed weeding, would you crowd source that, or turn to an experienced gardener?
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