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#263963 - 10/04/13 02:48 AM NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc
hamiamham Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 15
2nd post. Live in Tribeca - downtown Manhattan - wife, two small kids, apartment building, 7 floors, elevator, stairs, no outdoor space. While not a native, I have lived here for 20+ years and I have seen a few terrorist attacks, a random power outage in the whole of the Northeast, several snowstorms/blizzards,hurricanes; especially Sandy, a fire in our building, etc. I don't have an intention of living in a post - say - nuclear bombi situation or a post pandemic - think the plague in the middle ages - type scenario. I just want to keep myself and my family in good health and spirits in situations that I fully expect to encounter again. My wife - and others - would argue - that a bare minimum is necessary as we would "get out of dodge" before or as soon as possible after an event. I have a suv in the city as well as a dual-sport motorcycle and a scooter; more options - in theory - then most. That being said getting - what - a few million people off this island would take quite a bit of time - hours would be fantasy; probably days. And I can envision - as the authorities have closed the bridges and tunnels in the past - situations were we would be forced to survive in place. A multi-foot dump of snow - for example - would basically preclude travel. Also in the event of an - umm - event - I can see the guy with the car or motorcycles and the supplies to be a target of appropriation from their my fellow citizens or the police/government. Anyways this is a very long winder expression of my disappointment over what I have discovered on the web so far. I have read thru countless posts and watched countless videos of guys edc bags, bob bags, and home supplies in which no mention is ever made of the need for; nbc gas masks - helpful during a 9/11 type situation, a pandemic, etc. Tools - and I am not implying any illegal activity here - such as a pry bar or window punch or a way to mitigate locks - in the event of a fire, earthquake (yes nyc has fault lines nearby) etc. I see alot of urban "bags" with tree saws or 12 different ways to start a fire or devices dependent on electricity and a cell network to function. No mention of having some SAT phones around and a way to charge them. I am really not trying to stir the pot, be unfair, or critical but seems to me ALOT more thought needs to be put into a true urban situation. Can we stay? If we choose to go cxan we get out? great I got a 50lb bob backpack; can I really walk with that? Is someone going to stick me up and steal it? Barter items; he with the most weapons/guns wins, no? This is meant to provoke thought...

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#263964 - 10/04/13 03:32 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: hamiamham]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2760
Loc: USA
Welcome aboard!

First, I think you need to prepare for at least two scenarios, bugging out and bugging in.

For bugging in, you need to look a heat, light, food, water, waste disposal, medical requirements, staving off boredom, communications, cash, hygiene, waste disposal, and security needs, at least. You need to be ready to deal with at least a short-term requirement to seal off your apartment from contaminants. As you say, fire starting and woods-craft are less important.

For bugging out, add navigation, transportation, multiple ways off Manhattan, places to go, and triggers that would cause you to execute your plan. If you succeed in leaving Manhattan it's possible that you'd find yourself needing fire-starting and woods-craft tools and skills, so don't neglect them completely.

I'm originally from Manhattan and my mother still lives there. It isn't easy to leave Manhattan at the best of times. When Sandy was approaching I asked Mom to go visit friends on the mainland for a few days and she acted like I was out of my mind. Fortunately she weathered the storm well.

In your shoes, if I were committed to remaining in Manhattan, I would start looking at the most probable scenarios that would call for a bug out and be ready to make it happen. I would work to vanquish the oh-so-common "it can't happen here" attitude in myself and my family. In simple terms, I would aim to be among the first to leave if the situation seemed to call for it.

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#263967 - 10/04/13 04:36 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: chaosmagnet]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4552
Loc: SOCAL
Leaving most large highly populated areas is an event, bugging out from said large highly populated area during a terrorist/weather/EOTW event is something you either do ahead of the event or you roll to Plan B -- Bugging In. For me, Plan B is the norm; unless I know to leave before the event the road East will be packed and one tank of gas won't get there. Forget North/South, that's LA or Mexico. West is wet.

Go early or don't go.

YMMV

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#263968 - 10/04/13 04:45 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: hamiamham]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5917
Loc: southern Cal
Have you checked out the "Urban Disaster" pages on this website? They do list some of the items you mention. Of course, any such list is no more than a starting point for your own decision, adapted to you own particular circumstances.

I quite agree with Russ - BI is likely to be a more viable strategy and it gives you "home field advantage," so to speak.
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#263969 - 10/04/13 04:49 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5917
Loc: southern Cal
" West is wet." Ah,but if you navigate correctly, you will land on one of the Channel Islands, blessed and idyllic isles far from the strife and stress of modern life. They are fine if you enjoy sea food.
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Geezer in Chief

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#263972 - 10/04/13 05:15 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: hamiamham]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 971
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
great I got a 50lb bob backpack; can I really walk with that?


This will depend on how fit you are, what terrain and distance you have to cover, how long do you have to make the journey, etc. At 38, I found myself back in school carrying up to 40lb of books and laptop up and down hill for several cumulative miles on a daily basis. It wasn't difficult because it was broken down into several short legs with classes and meetings in between.

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#263973 - 10/04/13 05:15 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: hamiamham]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
I lived in Manhattan although I never had a vehicle. Living on an island definitely creates movement issues.

Here's another option to consider--making friends with someone within Manhattan as a bugout destination. Many situations will be more localized and will not necessarily affect both your apartment and the other bugout location. The power outages I went through didn't affect the whole borough. Subways were flooded in some places but not others. 9/11 happened way downtown while I lived and worked far uptown.

For a rapidly unfolding situation, it would probably be far more feasible to reach another part of Manhattan than getting off the island. I'd rather walk 80 blocks uptown to a friend's place than hoof it across a bridge on foot and then hope to find a way on the other side to continue on to my final bugout destination.

The space constraints certainly does put limits on how long your can bug-in at any typical Manhattan apartment, though, although NYC probably has the most thought-through contigency plans for restoring supplies and services after some incident.

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#263985 - 10/04/13 11:15 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: Russ]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: Russ
Go early or don't go.

YMMV


I agree. Being stuck on a freeway with cranky, impatient people is no fun on a normal day. Just look at the evacuation of Houston for hurricane Rita. crazy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1BcBaam7c8

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#263986 - 10/04/13 11:46 AM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: hamiamham]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 811
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Welcome;

There have been several threads (several years ago) about NYC survival/bugging out--- you may be able to pull them up with the search function.

One of the things that came up was the issue of walking out of the city, or at least Manhattan.

A couple of things that I recall receiving favorable mention were a silcock wrench to open the external water faucets on buildings (to get potable water)(NYC water is pressure fed, so water flows even if the power is out) and the utility of the common and ordinary (in NYC) 2 wheel shopping cart to carry your things. It avoids you having to carry that 50 pound back pack, and, being so common, draws less attention than a big backpack. Living in the city, you may have one of these already. Last time I was in Brooklyn, you could find them all over for very reasonable prices.
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"Better is the enemy of good enough."

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#263987 - 10/04/13 12:39 PM Re: NYC; bug-out, survive in place, etc [Re: hamiamham]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1680
Originally Posted By: hamiamham
I have read thru countless posts and watched countless videos of guys edc bags, bob bags, and home supplies in which no mention is ever made of the need for; nbc gas masks - helpful during a 9/11 type situation, a pandemic, etc. Tools - and I am not implying any illegal activity here - such as a pry bar or window punch or a way to mitigate locks - in the event of a fire, earthquake (yes nyc has fault lines nearby) etc. I see alot of urban "bags" with tree saws or 12 different ways to start a fire or devices dependent on electricity and a cell network to function. No mention of having some SAT phones around and a way to charge them. I am really not trying to stir the pot, be unfair, or critical but seems to me ALOT more thought needs to be put into a true urban situation. Can we stay? If we choose to go cxan we get out? great I got a 50lb bob backpack; can I really walk with that? Is someone going to stick me up and steal it? Barter items; he with the most weapons/guns wins, no? This is meant to provoke thought...


As for the NBC mask, I do actually see those in certain BOB post of people. Personally I don't believe in carrying such NBC equipment.
There are a few issues with carrying such mask:
- Many end up buying surplus masks, which are far too old and the materials get porous and filter canisters degrade. (air tight does not mean vapor tight, so you can't really test it yourself) So it gives you a false sense of safety
- To put on a NBC mask, you first need to know there is a danger. NBC detecting is hard, especially when you don't expect it. I don't think people will walk around with PID and Geiger meters all the time. If you feel the effects, you are generally already in big trouble.
- A NBC mask only protects your face and airways. Leaving the rest exposed is a big problem.
- If you escaped effectively, you need to know how to decontaminate.
- You need the right training, to wear, detect and decontaminate.

In the end you need up with a huge amount of equipment and have too much cash invested in one possible scenario, making it highly unpractical and have much less cash left for other possibilities. Just a N95 (optional would be the versions with a carbon layer, sold as disposable welding masks) would be sufficient for most situations, won't slow you down and doesn't cost much.

I do see people with lots of batteries or solar charge options. I find that satphones have their place, but in most cases you want to call relatives and friends nearby which means either everybody has a satphone or more likely you won’t be able to call them when the cellphone towers are down.
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