Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#263924 - 10/03/13 12:18 AM Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
This is a very sad situation:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2013/10/01/2792308/search-for-missing-woman-at-craters.html

Chances are slim that the victim is still alive, but you never know. There should be a vigorous search effort, even if the odds are long.

I understand that park employees can now search as volunteers.


Edited by hikermor (10/03/13 12:18 AM)
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#263926 - 10/03/13 01:06 AM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: hikermor]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1577
Very sorry that life-saving work got interrupted. I do pray that the missing hiker will be found well and alive.

Top
#263930 - 10/03/13 04:14 AM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: hikermor]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3152
Loc: Big Sky Country
That's terrible! No political tomfoolery should ever disrupt a SAR operation! I hope that she'll be found alive, but it doesn't look good at this point.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

Top
#264057 - 10/06/13 02:25 PM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: hikermor]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Hikermor - thanks for posting! sad situation, and difficult terrain for a search.

Just a note folks. If there is a need for experienced searchers - please post these articles quickly. There is a chance that some people on this forum could respond - particularly if they know that there is a shortage of volunteers.

These remarks are not directed at Hikermor in any way. It's just a comment for everyone to think about.

cheers,
Pete2


Edited by Pete (10/06/13 02:25 PM)

Top
#264059 - 10/06/13 04:18 PM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: hikermor]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
I don't think the few gov workers who were furloughed made much difference in the search effort. they probably are not going to have all that much to do with the actual searching anyway.

there has been a very concerted effort by the administration to make the so called shutdown as painful as possible. it has not been especially effective as most of what has been "shutdown" just does not effect all that many people real directly. even those who are furloughed are going to be paid for the time they are not working.

I think this story is mostly spin.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

Top
#264067 - 10/07/13 01:51 AM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: ILBob]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: ILBob
I don't think the few gov workers who were furloughed made much difference in the search effort. they probably are not going to have all that much to do with the actual searching anyway.


Well, that depends. With how many searches in NPS areas have you been involved? Offhand, I can recall five operations with which I have had personal experience (one for more than two months total) and I can tell you that in all these cases the presence and abilities of the staff helped considerably.

One thing about search operations, especially those that persist for more than a couple of days, is that they can become quite complex. Good detailed knowledge of the terrain and features of the search area is obviously critical. I know nothing of the knowledge, skills, and abilities of the individuals who work there, but I would be very surprised if there isn't at least one or two people who know the area very well, and are able to provide real help, either out ground pounding or advising in base camp (and that is not at all trivial).

And let's consider the terrain- it is to a good extent what is known as a'a lava - jagged bits of volcanic rock pushed and piled into chaotic jumbles. You don't hike through this country. It is more like continuous, low level rock climbing (AKA bouldering). You often have lava caves and tubes of varying extent which surely have a high priority in the search. I note that they have a couple of cavers participating in the effort and that is a very good idea. In this type of terrain, intimate knowledge is even more important than in more "normal" country.

At some point in this operation, it is likely that they would need to call in some fancy technology - heat sensors and the like which would detect the presence. Requests from a federal agency, sometimes from high up, can facilitate the appearance of "non-normal" items, like drones, for example. I would think they would be ideal for a situation like this.

And finally, there is good, old fashioned, mundane logistics. You want to have people out in the field searching. Once the search goes beyond day, you have got to get busy feeding, sleeping, supporting, resupplying, and relieving the folks in the field. Those on the staff who are not adept searchers can play a very important role in these areas.

It always intrigued me that in anything beyond the very simplest search operation, folks with very modest physical skills cold come in quite handy. One example that comes readily to mind - situating someone as an observer in a good spot, giving them some good binos or a spotting scope and a radio.

In the operations in my experience, the presence and participation of the NPS has aided the operation considerably, and they, of course, are not unique in this. I have seen a lot of ranchers provide similar and equally welcome aid. It is just simple humanity.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#264071 - 10/07/13 04:51 AM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: hikermor]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
if anyone hears of a Search and Rescue underway in the southwest (CA, AZ, NV) please do post it and draw it to my attention. I might be able to assist. I cant make promises, but I will look at it.

I am a tracker. I'm rusty these days, for sure. I used to be pretty reasonable - it comes back with some "time in the dirt". I have tracked missing kids before.

That terrain at Craters of the Moon is tough, though. Difficult to track people on that.

Anyway thanks for posting Hikermor.
And I hope that the missing woman is found - but fear that at this late stage it's not a good ending.
Good job!

Pete2


Edited by Pete (10/07/13 03:04 PM)

Top
#264084 - 10/07/13 09:39 PM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: Phaedrus]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
That's terrible! No political tomfoolery should ever disrupt a SAR operation! I hope that she'll be found alive, but it doesn't look good at this point.

The Anti-Deficiency Act definitely allows SAR activities as a "public safety" issue.

The cause of this is likely the response by agency management to that Act. That Act assigns criminal liability to anyone who spends government money without a congressional appropriation, with various public health & safety exceptions. And since no political appointee will ever risk jail time to ensure the public health & safety you get a lot of these bizarre results.

Top
#264086 - 10/08/13 02:24 AM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: hikermor]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
as time goes by I expect a lot more "disconnects".
particularly from Gov't services.
I'm not picking on our Government servants in any way.
I just think there will be constant headaches as the US Governmnent scales down its spending, and all sorts of illogical outcomes will happen.

The "system" is just not set up to be able to shrink itself in a methodical way.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (10/08/13 02:24 AM)

Top
#264087 - 10/08/13 03:09 AM Re: Search at Craters of the Moon Nat'lMonument [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen
And since no political appointee will ever risk jail time to ensure the public health & safety you get a lot of these bizarre results.


Wellll, maybe and maybe not. Sometime in the early 1980's the officials at Organ Pipe were faced with a situation in which several border crossers were dying of thirst and exposure - time was of the essence. They sent wheeled vehicles to their aid, trampling all sorts of wilderness regulations in the dust - to virtual universal acclaim, including mine and I am a staunch supporter of wild areas and conservative, minimal development in parks. No action was taken against them.

Strictly speaking, the decision makers in this case were career employees, not political appointees. I doubt they had time to seek guidance from the PAs in Washington.

I think the real problem is that whoever is operating in the field is doing so under very unusual circumstances, and inefficiencies and slow responses, vital to a good SAR operation, are likely to be more common. In any event, this is not a good time to have a problem in a park.


Edited by hikermor (10/08/13 03:11 AM)
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Moderator:  MartinFocazio, Tyber 
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
Who's Online
0 registered (), 501 Guests and 75 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Explorer9, GallenR, Jeebo, NicholasMarshall, Yadav
5368 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Bird Flu (H5N1) found in cattle -- are Humans next
by dougwalkabout
04:00 AM
People Are Not Paying Attention
by Bingley
03:24 AM
Corny Jokes
by wildman800
04/24/24 10:40 AM
USCG rescue fishermen frm deserted island
by brandtb
04/17/24 11:35 PM
Silver
by brandtb
04/16/24 10:32 PM
EDC Reduction
by Jeanette_Isabelle
04/16/24 03:13 PM
New York Earthquake
by chaosmagnet
04/09/24 12:27 PM
Bad review of a great backpack..
by Herman30
04/08/24 08:16 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.