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#262157 - 07/28/13 04:23 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: TeacherRO]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
There was a case where a guy held up a liquor store. He was caught on camera. He was wearing a mask, but the cops could identify that he had his trigger finger along the frame of the gun. From that, the cops concluded that he had some type military training. I thought that was funny. I habitually put my finger on the frame if I'm not about to fire the gun. I have no military training.

Anyway, the rule of "Every gun is always loaded" is simple, easy to remember, and has kept me safe. That's the whole point. Admittedly, there is a moment when I am forced to break that rule when I disassemble my gun to clean. I deeply contemplate breaking the rule, and as I am pulling the trigger I feel like the gun will fire even after I checked it multiple times. I like that aspect of the rule as well. Placing my finger on the trigger is always a big deal, and I'm OK with that.
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#262159 - 07/28/13 04:47 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: TeacherRO]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Yes, extracting the bolt in many bolt action rifles requires the trigger be pulled. In that case the bolt is already open, so effectively clearing the firearm and physically preventing an accidental discharge. I believe Glock model semi-autos also require the trigger be pulled in the action closed position to allow the slide to be removed. The correct procedure for this requires cycling the action to clear the chamber including visual inspection of clear. Other firearm configurations may require similar procedures, always including manual clear and inspect of the chamber before depressing the trigger, so these items would meet the 2nd reason criteria I cited.

I believe Condition 2 on a 1911 type single action semi-auto is no longer generally recommended. The point is debatable, but it has been shown that condition 2 is likely the 2nd least safe condition as it introduced too many risks in carry and handling/manipulation, so only condition 1 (cocked and locked) or condition 3 (hammer down on an empty chamber) are the most safe methods of carry/operation of those firearms, and Condition Zero (cocked and unlocked) is unacceptable for general carry. From a purely safe perspective, manipulating the action on a live round when not actually engaging a target introduces unnecessary risk.
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#262161 - 07/28/13 05:12 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: benjammin]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
IIRC the 1911 was originally designed with a grip safety and no manual thumb safety with carriage in what we refer to as Condition Zero in mind; the grip safety is an excellent design. The Army made Colt add the manual thumb safety.

As I recall from years ago, those memories are covered in cobwebs.
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Okay, what’s your point??

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#262168 - 07/28/13 07:17 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: jzmtl]
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1105
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: jzmtl
Originally Posted By: M_a_x

Basically you are right. If there is no purpose that requires a finger on the trigger, donīt touch it.


Does looking cool for Hollywood film counts? Because you know it's mandatory as soon as you are handed a gun to put finger on trigger and perhaps aim at something/body. laugh


No, it does not. Please donīt pick up habits like that. The life you save some day may be mine wink.
Firearms safety should not be neglected. Assuming is not good enough.
Pointing a gun in an unsafe direction is bound to harm someone some day.
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#262169 - 07/28/13 07:22 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: benjammin]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
I believe Glock model semi-autos also require the trigger be pulled in the action closed position to allow the slide to be removed.


They do.

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#262170 - 07/28/13 08:52 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: benjammin]
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1105
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: benjammin
Yes, extracting the bolt in many bolt action rifles requires the trigger be pulled. In that case the bolt is already open, so effectively clearing the firearm and physically preventing an accidental discharge. ... Other firearm configurations may require similar procedures, always including manual clear and inspect of the chamber before depressing the trigger, so these items would meet the 2nd reason criteria I cited.

I have a hunting rifle with a Mauser 98 system. The trigger is pulled with safety on when disengaging the hair trigger with a loaded chamber. I would not file that under either of the two criteria. I still think our basic understanding of when to put the finger on the trigger is the same.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
I believe Condition 2 on a 1911 type single action semi-auto is no longer generally recommended.


The P226 is designed for condition 2 carry. I liked the fact that I could ease the hammer down without using the trigger. Getting used to that allows a stricter application of the rules you already stated.
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#263487 - 09/14/13 03:29 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: TeacherRO]
TeacherRO Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2471
Also, don't go barefoot in the Winter.

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#263503 - 09/15/13 03:28 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: M_a_x]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2196
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: M_a_x
[quote=benjammin]Yes, extracting the bolt in many bolt action rifles requires the trigger be pulled. In that case the bolt is already open, so effectively clearing the firearm and physically preventing an accidental discharge. ... Other firearm configurations may require similar procedures, always including manual clear and inspect of the chamber before depressing the trigger, so these items would meet the 2nd reason criteria I cited.

I have a hunting rifle with a Mauser 98 system. The trigger is pulled with safety on when disengaging the hair trigger with a loaded chamber. I would not file that under either of the two criteria. I still think our basic understanding of when to put the finger on the trigger is the same.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
I believe Condition 2 on a 1911 type single action semi-auto is no longer generally recommended.


The original Mausers you would open the bolt, extracting the round, then pull the trigger to remove the bolt entirelt from the rifle. Not sure if you are "doing it wrong" or if the action has been changed. Have you tried opening the bolt first before using the trigger?

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#263507 - 09/15/13 07:55 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: jzmtl]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Does looking cool for Hollywood film counts? Because you know it's mandatory as soon as you are handed a gun to put finger on trigger and perhaps aim at something/body.


Well there is Hollywood 'Who Dares Wins' fantasy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydA5Y86crsw

Then there is 'Run away, run away, fight to live another day' reality. wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AfWQoKv0UA

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#263536 - 09/16/13 05:24 PM Re: Bad math: one is not none [Re: MDinana]
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1105
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: MDinana
The original Mausers you would open the bolt, extracting the round, then pull the trigger to remove the bolt entirelt from the rifle. Not sure if you are "doing it wrong" or if the action has been changed. Have you tried opening the bolt first before using the trigger?


The original Mauser action has a holder for the action on the left side. It is pivoted out to allow removing the bolt. Pulling the trigger is not required.
The hunting rifle has a changed trigger. The original trigger is replaced with a German hair trigger. When the hair trigger is engaged, opening the bolt may cause accidental discharge. Putting on the safety and pulling the trigger is tought as standard procedure to disengage the hair trigger. This is a safe procedure as the safety holds the firing pin. Disengaging the hair trigger and removing the bolt are two different subjects


Edited by M_a_x (09/16/13 05:24 PM)
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