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#258289 - 03/29/13 03:30 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: bacpacjac]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1229
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: bacpacjac
It's possible they didn't realize the road wasn't maintained in winter. The Kim family didn't. Situations like this one happen to people in all ages and stages of life. Don't be fooled into thinking "That would never happen to me because I'm not old like them."

Good points. Most of us, if we are honest with ourselves, will have at times done things that were really dumb when viewed with 20/20 hindsight. Things that the could have (or perhaps did) put us in life threatening situations. I know I sure have. We make a series of small decisions that individually don't seem all that serious, but eventually lead us into very dangerous situations. It has happened to me, more than once, but so far I've managed to out of it OK, either by luck or skill.

A wrong turn, a warning sign covered with dirt or snow, a funky map, a gate left unlocked.....any number of things could have happened. I presume that the authorities will try to work out the chain of events/decisions that put them into that situation. The story of the Kim familly in Oregon, and the story about the German familly in Death Valley are examples of how reasonable people can get into life threatening situations.

I think the most productive thing is to try to learn what went wrong, and try to avoid making similar mistakes ourselves. And also to recognize that we well might someday make other mistakes, and try to be prepared so that our dumb move doesn't become a fatal move.
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#258292 - 03/29/13 03:43 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: dougwalkabout]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Doing extremely dumb things happens ALL THE TIME on the ski resort. If you don't put on your dunce cap, then you won't have much fun and won't progress your skills. You will stay on the bunny slopes or blues at the most...boring.

However, it's important to realize that if you're pushing the limits, sometimes you will guess wrongly. Just be mature enough to know it's your fault, not the ski resort's fault and not your buddy's fault who brought you off trail.

By the way, nobody out there on the resort is immune. Skiing and snowboarding are inherently dangerous and dumb activities. It's so darn fun that we tend to forget sometimes.
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#258317 - 03/29/13 09:12 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: haertig]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Originally Posted By: haertig
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
A Sunday drive gone wrong. Three seniors got onto a road not normally maintained in winter, and got stuck.

I can't believe we have seniors who think a drive down an unmaintained snowy road in the middle of nowhere is "a Sunday drive". I wonder if senility figured into the picture?
Dont think so,getting stuck isnt on most folks radar.

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#258320 - 03/29/13 09:16 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: dougwalkabout]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Ive gone on some pretty snowy roads coming home,I just push on,sure many others do,BUT I have great faith in my truck vrs cars from experience.Too many folks thinks a rice rocket is a snow vehicle,they are stuck constantly,my surprise is that more dont perish than do.

A flatlander in the hills is in trouble,as you could say about many other situations we face in life.

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#258325 - 03/29/13 10:25 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: spuds]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1229
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: spuds
Ive gone on some pretty snowy roads coming home,I just push on,sure many others do,BUT I have great faith in my truck vrs cars from experience.Too many folks thinks a rice rocket is a snow vehicle,they are stuck constantly,my surprise is that more dont perish than do.

A flatlander in the hills is in trouble,as you could say about many other situations we face in life.
No vehicle (truck or car) is immune to getting stuck. A couple of days ago we had a big snow,and I had to help a youung neighbor get her big gnarly 4WD pickup unstuck from her driveway. She had somehow managed to get high centered on the berm at the edge of the driveway. Myself and another neighbor finally pulled her out with....believe it or not....a little import car.

Please note Spuds, that I am not suggesting you would exercise bad judgement or get yourself into trouble. I'm sure you are very careful about where and when you travel in snow country. But people should stay away from the idea that a 4WD somehow means they will never get stuck. Good judgement by the driver is far more important than the rig they are driving. When people get careless, their big 4WD PU or SUV often just gets further into a bad situation before they get stuck.



Edited by AKSAR (03/29/13 10:27 PM)
Edit Reason: I can't type today!
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"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#258327 - 03/29/13 10:42 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: AKSAR]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
My most extensive experience with off road driving was at Canyon de Chelly, driving at least one trip daily to and from our excavation. The best piece of advice about dealing with shifting quicksands of the canyon was "Don't worry about getting stuck. Everyone does get stuck." (resistance is futile).

Very often you would help someone get out of the mire who had gottem you out of a pickle just the day before. I was driving a 4WD winch equipped pickup, just right for canyon conditions. Once I got mired so thoroughly that I had to roll down the window to exit the vehicle. It took two tractors to extricate my truck. I had been driving conservatively, following an existing set of tracks made by a larger vehicle. However, I failed to notice that the tracks did not emerge from the other side of the stream.....

Navajos living in the canyon did amazing trips with normal passenger cars. Again, it is skill and experience, not equipment, that counts.
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#258351 - 03/30/13 10:38 AM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: hikermor]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Originally Posted By: hikermor


Navajos living in the canyon did amazing trips with normal passenger cars. Again, it is skill and experience, not equipment, that counts.
Its both.

No,I dont go looking for trouble but thinking 4x4 means you go anywhere is inexperience to the highest degree....but when it comes to equipment my Truck makes my jeep look like a slug.Now you may have a monster high end or modified Jeep that puts mine to shame,but stockers,my truck is far better than my Jeep.

So yes,equipment does matter.Just like your high end ropes.

And no 2 wheel drive with snow tires on car is going thru ice and snow that my big heavy diesel 4x4 high clearance truck with snow tires can,no way,no how. I see that constantly,I live it.

My comments about flatlanders in the hills....take yourself out of your equipment/experience comfort zone,you will have problems.Hence stuck flatlanders every time it snows.

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#258369 - 03/30/13 03:02 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: spuds]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I am sure we all would agree that in an ideal world, you have skill, experience, and superb equipment, all ideal for the task at hand.

Take another area - firearms. I am an adequate shot, but rather rusty - my military and LE training are decades ago. Give me a fine target rife, capable of sub-MOA accuracy, and I will keep the shots on the paper, and probably shoot a decent group (for me). But hand that same rifle to one of the current riflemen here on the forum, and you will get a group you can cover with a dime, or maybe just one hole - the best possible result. Could I out shoot that same rifleman if that person had a mediocre firearm? That would be an interesting question. I suspect I could not.

Going back to off roading. They still talk about the Phoenix doctor who custom built a 4x4 specifically for Canyon de Chelly. He brought to the canyon and irretrievably stuck it within sight of the visitor center. It sank from view, and now rests deep within the sands of de Chelly, awaiting the attention of future archaeologists from the planet Mong.

Eperience counts.
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Geezer in Chief

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#258378 - 03/30/13 06:31 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: hikermor]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1229
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: hikermor
I am sure we all would agree that in an ideal world, you have skill, experience, and superb equipment, all ideal for the task at hand.

Take another area - firearms. I am an adequate shot, but rather rusty - my military and LE training are decades ago. Give me a fine target rife, capable of sub-MOA accuracy, and I will keep the shots on the paper, and probably shoot a decent group (for me). But hand that same rifle to one of the current riflemen here on the forum, and you will get a group you can cover with a dime, or maybe just one hole - the best possible result. Could I out shoot that same rifleman if that person had a mediocre firearm? That would be an interesting question. I suspect I could not.

Going back to off roading. They still talk about the Phoenix doctor who custom built a 4x4 specifically for Canyon de Chelly. He brought to the canyon and irretrievably stuck it within sight of the visitor center. It sank from view, and now rests deep within the sands of de Chelly, awaiting the attention of future archaeologists from the planet Mong.

Eperience counts.
LOL... Love your story about the Phoenix Dr! I can just imagine a Star Trek Next Generation hikermor sometime in the next millenium, doing his dissertation on the remarkable discovery he made in the Canyon.... smile

One other story about the equipment vs skill equation. A long time ago, I worked for a few years out of Denver, doing oil exploration up in WY. We had an old guy who would "bird dog" our seismic crews (follow them around and make sure they were working up to spec). He had a classic big Detroit street car that he would drive into the field, an Impala as I recall. The only modification was a steel plate protecting the oil pan, other than that it was just stock.

The seismic crews were working off road, out in the sagebrush country. Some of it was easy going, but there were some pretty rough spots, washes to cross, etc. He was able to drive that car into the most amazing places. Somewhere in my files I think I have a photo of him and that car, on the far side of a wash, just laughing. He was watching the crew trying to winch out one of the big 4WD trucks that had become thoroughly stuck when it tried to follow him across the wash. He went with the seis crews everywhere in that car, and rarely if ever got stuck. Most of what I know about off road driving I learned by riding around with him.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#258387 - 03/30/13 10:08 PM Re: Another fatality on a snowed-in road [Re: dougwalkabout]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Well what can I say?My street for example... Im still looking for the 2 wheel drive car,without chains,that can drive up my street when iced over. That my 4x4 without chains can.Been here 13 years,havent seen it ONE time.Not one time.

4x4's? Right tires? Up and down all day long.Thats equipment,not experience(beyond having a properly equipped vehicle under them) moving those vehicles up the road.

To make it worse,we have people leaving in vehicles with road tires going down.EVERY YEAR,without fail,a couple wind up in my neighbors yard,.....hit ice,slide,cant turn and poof.In his yard. Thats not experience/driver skill,its equipment again,tires without grip.Physics.

Snow tires,no issue at all If they have enough experience to crawl down that section and turn.

Hence I say its Both,equipment and experience that gets you through snow and ice.Equipment trumping skill in most cases (You can have a yahoo go too fast for road conditions,see it all the time)

Sand and gravel vrs snow and ice...apples and oranges.

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