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#258271 - 03/29/13 09:15 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1613
Loc: Northern California
Everytime I read a comment of the original poster, I have less understanding of the goal here. Put another way, it's becoming clear the original question is rhetorical. He cannot be both (1) truly atheist and (2) looking for an answer to his question. One of those must be false.

A person who is 100% atheist would have little use for an answer to the original question. Likewise, I truly believe in God. So, I have little use for a deep discussion on how atheism will help me in a survival situation. All I have use for is knowing the atheist approach for survival for the sake of getting to know a friend, and that conversation is rather short. I don't need a long discussion of points and counterpoints because, again, I believe in God. So, at the end of the day, the atheist approach is primarily just a piece of trivia in my head. I expect a true atheist to view a faith-based approach in the same manner.
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#258272 - 03/29/13 11:36 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3588
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I have to say that I worry about this thread sometimes.

With great respect, Byng, I love ya, but I have to defend sybert and his Third Man comment. I'd do this via PM but I think you're mature enough to help remind everyone to thread softly.

Here's what sybert said:

Quote:
"I believe that it is most likely a hallucination."


IMO, this isn't being disrespectful or dimissive. He answered your question honestly and simply, and didn't start an argument by elaborating on the whys of his answer. It's not fair to bait someone and then accuse them of being disrespectful just because they happen to hold a different view than yours.

You asked - twice. If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question. As the OP, and holding what appears to be a minority view, it could have been be viewed as disrespectful for him to ignore your question completely. Yea, he could have been more sensative/diplomatic and added a "but...." but the difficulty of diplomacy when we discuss religion is one of reassns we generally don't discuss such matters here at ETS.

IMO, this thread needs to remain focused on sharing anecdotal evidence of times that faith did or could save our lives. Let's not bait each other. If we let ourselves devolve into debating the validity of our faith, no Third Man is going to save us from the mods.

We've had a little feather ruffelage, but it's really hard not to let some of our passion bubble to the surface when we discuss such intimate personal things. Kudos to everyone!




Edited by bacpacjac (03/29/13 12:19 PM)
Edit Reason: diplomacy. :-)
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#258273 - 03/29/13 11:54 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: ireckon]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3588
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ireckon
Everytime I read a comment of the original poster, I have less understanding of the goal here.


We are in danger of going off the rails so, how about some specific examples of how faith can help in a survival situation?


LDS - one year of preps would be a huge help in a natural or financial disaster.

Christianity - "God helps he who helps himself" and "Love thy neighbour", "Fight for life" seem like three tenants of faith that could be emmensely helpful in a survival situation.

Native North Americans - "Mother Earth will provide if we take care of her" seems like another way of saying that we should be sustainably resourceful. How could that not help in a survival situation?

Athiesm - could also be described as faith in the science of 98.6

That's just four ideas. I'm sure there are more.
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#258282 - 03/29/13 02:15 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: bacpacjac]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6232
Loc: southern Cal
I have always remembered a comment by an Arizona sheriff from long ago - "most of the survivors he had encountered possessed strong egos." This came home to me on a particularly dicey night out when I thought my companions might have triggered a search. I was determined to look good and to be capable of offering any arriving search party a working cook stove and a steaming cup of coffee. It was important to appear to be capable and in control of the situation (which is probably one of my motivations for prepping today).

I think it comes down to personality being an important factor in a survival situation, and religious orientation, or lack thereof, may be a component of a survivor's personality.

I am not a Mormon, nor am I likely to become one, but I have always thought their practice of stocking a year's worth of food to be an excellent notion, especially in the pioneer conditions in which that idea evolved.
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#258285 - 03/29/13 02:50 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: hikermor]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Campfire Forum, to allow a little more leeway in our discussions?

Pete

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#258288 - 03/29/13 03:10 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: bacpacjac]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1369
Originally Posted By: bacpacjac
IMO, this isn't being disrespectful or dimissive. He answered your question honestly and simply, and didn't start an argument by elaborating on the whys of his answer. It's not fair to bait someone and then accuse them of being disrespectful just because they happen to hold a different view than yours.

You asked - twice. If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question


I didn't say he was disrespectful or dismissive. I said his behavior was hypocritical. Let me use an analogy. In effect, sybert made the two statements:

1. Hey, guys, we're here to discuss how to cook, not the merits of national cuisines.

2. I don't have to follow my own rule, and I say French food sucks.

Also, what question did I ask twice? "Hey, guys, do you think the 'Third Man' is a hallucination?" No, I did not ask that specific question, but I left it open-ended. Again, to use an analogy, I asked: "What about boeuf bourguignon?" When one could answer possibly with something like "adding bacon in the beginning enhances the flavor," he answered, "Boeuf bourguignon is great!"

The content of the question is immaterial to my objection. What I object to is hypocrisy.

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#258290 - 03/29/13 03:36 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: bacpacjac]
Chisel Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1154
I agree with BPJ on this point

Quote:
LDS - one year of preps would be a huge help in a natural or financial disaster.

Christianity - "God helps he who helps himself" and "Love thy neighbour", "Fight for life" seem like three tenants of faith that could be emmensely helpful in a survival situation.

Native North Americans - "Mother Earth will provide if we take care of her" seems like another way of saying that we should be sustainably resourceful. How could that not help in a survival situation?


In my faith, we fast for one month ( dawn to dusk) from any food or drink , and the pilgrimage ( at least originally ) takes one back to the simplest form of living ( two sheets for clothing and living in tents). Nowdays companies invented more and more portable comfort items .. .but anyways....

In this regard, many faiths do direct their followers to the wiser side of living, and somewhat trains them for badder times. Me think.

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#258297 - 03/29/13 05:32 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: Chisel]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
I am hesitant to reveal my religious affiliation, not because I am ashamed, but the feel it is not the purpose of this forum or this thread. So I will try and explain from my perception how religion (in general), spiritual belief and prayer can be beneficial in a survival situation, without specific references to any particular religion.

To me, God is an unknowable essence. We are finite beings trying to understand the infinite, the painting trying to know the painter. It is not possible and yet I do believe it is our spiritual goal to try and know and love this unknowable essence. I believe we as individuals and as societies, adopt various religious teachings to help us understand this relationship and to foster social interaction. When positively interpreted, these religious teachings have lead to advancements in both personal and societal growth. The very survival of a particular people or culture very often is dependent upon these teachings.

I believe God has given us free will, but at the same time a blueprint for life. If we adhere to the blueprint, our lives will conform to what is best for us. If we choose another blueprint, life may not be so easy to navigate. But it is our freewill to follow the blueprint or not. Those of us, who are parents, may see this relationship in our interactions with our children. We want them to be self-reliant, productive members of society. Based upon our life experiences we can provide them guidance that will allow them to learn and progress. They have the free will to accept the guidance or reject it and experience the results of their actions.

I believe the blueprint from God teaches us to be prepared, self-reliant individuals, but at the same time compassionate and giving. I believe that God wants us to live full productive lives, giving us the will to push on despite adversity and the despair that can come from survival situations. As to prayer, I consider myself lucky that my religious tradition has many revealed prayers. I view these prayers as Godís way of answering my requests and giving me a blueprint as to what is really important in life, even before I am placed in a situation where I need divine assistance. I try and remember to pray every day for wisdom and the ability to do the right thing at the right time, a form of preplanning. When something does happen and I decide to pray for assistance, part of that prayer is to not only ask for help and guidance, but acceptance as well.

Pete

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#258308 - 03/29/13 08:51 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
sybert777 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 299
Loc: 62040
Thank you, BPJ, I appreciate you defending me. I will disregard what Bingley said in order to focus this thread on what the original question was. I have received many thought provoking answers, and I consider myself informed now. This thread may be deleted if the moderators feel the need to do so.

Also, I am not trolling, however, as answers veered further away from my intended question (Poorly stated, I admit) I grew more impatient. The belief that I was trolling or attacking an individual's faith also made me grow more upset. I'm sorry if my attitude changed, I hadn't meant it to.

I would argue my stance of this issue, but I feel it would be more hurtful than productive. And for those in question, I am a strong atheist. I (as it was brought to my attention) am a 6 on the Dawkins scale.

Now, getting the conversation back on track, I believe that Native American's had the greatest understanding (in America) of spirituality. Do I believe that helped them? Yes. I may not believe in it, but it doesn't mean I don't believe it can be a positive, driving force. I hope this in concise enough, when I am not bombarded with homework, I will answer questions I have not gotten around to.
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#258322 - 03/29/13 09:22 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6232
Loc: southern Cal
"Native American" covers a lot of ground, both literally and metaphorically, spanning numerous cultures occupying a wide array of environments and at varying degrees of cultural complexity. Do you refer to the complex and well-developed cultures of middle America, like the Aztecs, who had a well known thing for human sacrifice? - Quite necessary for the propagation and well being of the universe, according to what we understand of their cosmology.

I am sure you can cherry pick the writings of any group and enter them in a "most spiritual" contest. Christians have said a lot of very spiritual things, and then there is the Inquisition....


Edited by hikermor (03/29/13 09:24 PM)
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