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#258093 - 03/26/13 06:20 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
Chisel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1210
I am also of a minority faith in ETS

My devotion means a very deep relation with the higher power

It is interesting that in a survival situation or bad times anyway, it doesn't seem that the "official" details of a certain faith that are important, but rather one's approach to that faith.

I have seen people who are 10 times more holy-book thumping than me, 100 times more praying than me, but in case of a localized micro-SHTF siuation, they freak out and forget it all.

Faith has helped me many times but not in very different way that some described above. I do believe in my own training and wisdom to handle the situation, but faith fills that gap as a human does what is humanly possible ( and then leave the outcome to God). Soe can call it compromise or whatever, but I have felt relaxation and satisfaction many times when things worked out or didn't. I am satisfied that I did what I could, and at the same time, I know that I don't know everything in the universe, so what may appear today as a bad thing, may turn out tommorrow as the best thing that ever happened.


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#258098 - 03/26/13 06:46 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3229
Loc: USA
I know one person who has completely abdicated responsibility for practically everything in her life. The higher power she believes in, she says, will take care of everything. Frankly I can't stand to be around her and I try mightily to avoid interacting with her.

Others I know have a deep and abiding personal faith but also accept responsibility for their actions and for solving life's challenges. It seems to me that they gain inner strength from their faith, helping them emotionally through difficult times. These sorts of people tend to be of the sort that I enjoy spending time with, even though I do not share their faith.

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#258099 - 03/26/13 07:54 PM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: chaosmagnet]
Chisel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1210
Quote:
I know one person who has completely abdicated responsibility for practically everything in her life. The higher power she believes in, she says, will take care of everything. Frankly I can't stand to be around her and I try mightily to avoid interacting with her.


Trying my best NOT to stereotype, but I find many people of this view of (whatever) faith. These people generally adhere to texts and rituals without trying to utilize such rituals to strengthen their inner selves.

I have told one of them in my community that it is them who cause others ( stereotypically younger generation ) to drift AWAY from faith ( regardless of which faith it is ).

Back to survival.
Faith AFAIK does not strip us from our responsibilities or capabilities. It just says that our decisions and deeds should follow some guidelines.

An interesting point here seems to do with some religious restrictions. For example, some faiths impose food/diet restrictions on thier followers. It is inetresting to think of such restrictions as positive or negative for survival.


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#258112 - 03/27/13 01:34 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
I saw this thread this morning, and I was going to pass on it because it looked like the discussion was faith vs. survival skills. It looked like a straw man argument, as it is easy to have both. When I got home from work, I revisited the thread and was glad to see some excellent and respectful comments.

It seems to me that there is an innate desire in humans to seek a higher power. This spiritual need transcends time, culture, race, and geography. Is it a spiritual energy, a 'soul' that searches?

Religion is mankind's flawed attempt to recognize (and yes, even capitalize) on this innate desire. Marx ridiculed it as the 'opiate of the people'. As some have stated here, there are people who misunderstand, manipulate, or use religion to get power and wealth to the point where is does indeed impede spirituality.

Why do I belabor this point? Because I believe that it is this innate spirituality that helps pull a person through difficult times. It doesn't matter if it's a severe medical challenge, loss of a spouse, or a true survival situation. With all due respect, I believe that some reject God because acceptance would require behavior modification. I also believe that some atheists seek a higher power, and may have been disappointed along the way by organized religion. To quote the old BST rock classic, "I'll swear there ain't no heaven, but I'll pray there ain't no hell"

It seems to me that WWII placed many into harms way and a survival situation. While I don't have any combat experience, I know of someone who does. President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954 speech quoted "There are no atheists in foxholes".

For respectful discussion, why would a self-avowed atheist start a thread like this if not searching and hoping to be persuaded?
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#258113 - 03/27/13 01:42 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
Being Catholic, part of my faith is to always choose life over death. With that in mind, I will fight to survive rather than resign myself to death. I don't expect prayer to bring God flying in to rescue me in a time of dire need. But he expects me to keep trying to fight to stay alive and that, for me, is a strong help in itself. I do not wish to fail my Lord.

-Blast
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#258116 - 03/27/13 01:56 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
This pretty much sums up my view. no idea who the originator is but it's not mine.

I have faith in something outside of myself, but that higher power isn't going to do diddly if I just sit on my duff and wait to be saved. I have a responsibility to my family to actively take part in preventing and conquering the challenges I face. I have faith that whatever that outside force is will give me the edge as long as I do my best and don't give up.

anyway, here's the story:

Tere's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

They send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

About an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

He drowns of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"


Edited by bacpacjac (03/27/13 02:08 AM)
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#258123 - 03/27/13 05:05 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: Byrd_Huntr]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2438
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: Byrd_Huntr


President Dwight D. Eisenhower in remarks broadcast from the White House as part of a February 7, 1954 speech quoted "There are no atheists in foxholes".


Apropos of nothing that quote drives me up the wall! There are indeed many atheists in foxholes! In fact there's an organization of military atheists that shares my annoyance at that untrue but oft-repeated notion.

Some people embrace the notion of some deity or high power because they view the fact there may not be one to be unbearable. But argument from consequences is one of the most basic logical fallacies, well known to any novice debater or student of logic. Respectfully, faith born solely out of fear has to be the weakest kind of faith possible.

I really am fascinated with religion; I'm on record as having said many times over the years that we learn more about ourselves as a species from the study of our mythology than we do from psychology. So for the record, my enthusiasm for studying religion and engaging in conversations derives from intellectual curiosity, not a desire to "convinced" to come around to belief in things not supported by reason or evidence.

All that said, I have no problems with religious people, so long as they respect my rights not to believe. I think that's the most important thing, that we all have enough respect for each other to let people live their own lives as they choose.
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#258124 - 03/27/13 05:06 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: bacpacjac]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2438
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: bacpacjac
This pretty much sums up my view. no idea who the originator is but it's not mine.

I have faith in something outside of myself, but that higher power isn't going to do diddly if I just sit on my duff and wait to be saved. I have a responsibility to my family to actively take part in preventing and conquering the challenges I face. I have faith that whatever that outside force is will give me the edge as long as I do my best and don't give up.

anyway, here's the story:

Tere's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

They send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

About an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

He drowns of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"


Sorry for the long quote but that's one of my favorite all time jokes! grin
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#258128 - 03/27/13 07:00 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
sybert777 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 299
Loc: 62040
For respectful discussion, why would a self-avowed atheist start a thread like this if not searching and hoping to be persuaded?

I am tired writing this, and have had to put up with alot before writing this, so feel free to suspend me if I say anything offensive. I do not find help in any faith, as anything you can do with your faith, I can do without it. I find my motivation not through a deity, but through my own inner convictions. I too have a problem with "There are no Atheists in foxholes". There are many atheists in foxholes, except they value life, in the sense they do not believe they have another one. Technically, any atheist here is in a "foxhole" because they don't know the dangers that lie ahead of them, thus they prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

Phaedrus: I am glad you are atheist. I respect all faiths and beliefs, but I know such few atheists. I don't want to make this thread about atheism, but it's nice to meet you.
It's nice to know all of you, actually. You are all great people.


Edited by sybert777 (03/27/13 07:09 AM)
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#258130 - 03/27/13 08:16 AM Re: Invisible help in Survival Situations? [Re: sybert777]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1415
Originally Posted By: sybert777
For respectful discussion, why would a self-avowed atheist start a thread like this if not searching and hoping to be persuaded?


This thread has taken a really weird turn. Let me remind the participants that this forum isn't for proselytizing, or for asking to be proselytized to. Some atheists are just as bad and as close-minded as their arch-nemesis, the Christian fundamentalists, about this sort of stuff. Don't be them.

Maybe we can make this thread more productive: what specific spiritual techniques would you recommend to achieve calmness, clarity, strength, etc., in a survival situation?

One thing that I can recommend is to meditate upon the figure who represents the very essence of the quality that you want. It doesn't matter who it is, but that figure just has to stand for that quality in your mind. So atheists can meditate upon Richard Dawkins if they want to attain, say, some clarity of scientific reasoning in figuring out where they are on the topographical map. In my experience this sort of stuff is not magic, but when performance matters, you want to be 100%, and not the 50% you are often reduced to in an emergency.

If you meditate regularly, you can focus your mind more efficiently, and as a consequence you can achieve greater performance. Meditation does require practice, so I'm not sure that you should start when you're up the creek without a match or water.

Now, I have never been up the creek without a match or water, so I can't say that meditation helps. I talk better, think better, fight better, and shoot better after focusing mentally, for sure. Maybe some real survival experiences are called for here. There are some archeologists amongst us, right? Hikermor? Do indigenous people have spiritual practices that give them an edge in survival situations? Can we, in our modern cultural environment, make use of these practices?

As for divine help, if anyone knows how to call in, urh, an "air strike," whatever religion you believe in, please let us know. That seems like a useful skill.

In other words, I'd encourage you to think of spiritual resources as "technology" or "equipment." After all, this is "Equipped to Survive." If you can make use of something, why not.

May the Force be with you.

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