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#254167 - 12/02/12 06:06 AM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: spuds]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
by the way ... in terms of deterrence on the street and effective against some animals - a good stun gun is also a possibility. check the Barracuda BC-37 stun gun ... these babies are head-and-shoulders above the competition. If you are being threatened by punks who look like they want to use their fists - just take it out and give them a display of the electrical flash. It's enough to make anyone think twice about tangling with you. If you do actually use it on people, I would recommend contact with the extremities, or possibly the back or hips (not head, neck or chest). These things pack a wallop.

cheers,
Pete2

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#254169 - 12/02/12 06:19 AM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: spuds]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1415
Spuds, do you know what to do if someone grabs your stick during the course of the attack? Or what if he grabs your hand? How about he grabs around you in a bear hug from behind? The stick is a blunt weapon. You'll need to know how to grapple with it, to retain your stick against someone trying to take it away.

Can you strike/jab accurately? Do you know where to or not to strike/jab? Where did you get this knowledge from? Most people, even after some training, aren't that accurate. How will you prepare for the implication of this (i.e., adapting to a failed defense)?

I'm with the people who point out that striking with a stick would/could be regarded as lethal in the eye of the law. Along the same line, you can't carry a stick with the intention of "scaring them away." The people who get a gun and think, "I'll never shoot it -- I'll just scare the bad guys away," are the ones who get their guns taken away by the bad guys. You have to have the ability and the mindset to backup the threat, and you have to project your confidence and courage. And this has to be real confidence and real courage. The usual way to get this is through training.

I'm relieved that you're going to look into the legal aspects of self-defense.

Please ignore advice that you should keep hitting until there is only one side of the story.


Edited by Bingley (12/02/12 06:21 AM)

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#254174 - 12/02/12 01:35 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: spuds]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
There's an article about walking sticks this month in "Backwoodsman" magazine. (www.backwoodsmanmag.com)

The author talks about different building materials but, when it comes to defensive uses, he refers to fending off small dogs and ferretting out snakes on the trail, so it might not be what you're looking for, Spuds.
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#254183 - 12/02/12 03:01 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: hikermor]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Originally Posted By: hikermor
I have employed a variety of walking sticks over the years - everything from sticks picked up along the trail to elaborate collapsible ski-type poles (fairly pricey). They are versatile, useful in all kinds of terrain and in many diverse situations. I have had a little training with batons and their potential for use in self defense, or even attack, is pretty obvious, depending upon what type you are carrying.

Want sturdy and stout? - get a replacement shovel handle from the hardware store, put a loop on the end, and you have a handy tool - quite adequate as a weapon and for other purposes.

Want cheap? Find a natural piece of wood of the right thickness and heft, modify it a bit and you will be in business. One of these was my very favorite until I lost it last year.

Want high tech and versatile? Spend $40 or up for a collapsible walking stick - brands include Leki or Komperdell, among others, and you will have a very nice tool that stows away easily, makes a nice tent pole, and is very useful for detecting snakes, moving brush, or as a camera monopod. Can be used for defense, of course, although it is a bit light.

Remember - jab, don't swing......


Agreed. id add that a pole et al. is just a tool to keep someone/something away. A true deterrent requires showing it is a threat. if your worried, carry pepper spray or stun gun as well
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#254195 - 12/02/12 05:16 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: spuds]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
In America ... if you display and use any kind of (potentially) deadly weapon then you are likely to face some sort of legal consequences. I think the advice we're trying to give is intended to save your life. But your property could belong to the lawyers afterwards, no matter what happens :-)

If you display a deadly weapon, esp. a gun or a knife, the police call this "brandishing". It's against the law ... at least in some places (I'm no expert on this). I imagine that if you swung a baseball bat around recklessly that would also qualify. In spite of this problem, my practical attitude is that a confident display of a weapon can have a strong deterrent effect. I'm not talking about firing a gun or slashing someone with a knife (or hitting with a stick) - but holding the weapon with confidence and poise. If you show that you know how to use it, you demonstrate mental confidence, and your would-be attackers think they could get seriously hurt, then they may re-consider. There are no perfect guarantees, but criminals are not idiots. The essential thing is to be very confident - which usually won't happen without a lot of training and experience with the weapon you've chosen.

However, if you actually hit someone (or cut them and draw blood) then you can trigger the flight-or-fight response. It's possible they could run - but also possible they might strike back out of fear or rage. So my basic philosophy is that "if blood is drawn - be prepared for the worst".

Pete2


Edited by Pete (12/02/12 05:18 PM)

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#254200 - 12/02/12 06:52 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: Pete]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2103
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Pete
... but criminals are not idiots ...

Actually, most are. But we'll say they are only "stupid" and not "felony stupid" for this discussion. smile

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#254201 - 12/02/12 07:13 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: spuds]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 285
Loc: eastern Oregon & west TX
i have bad feet so carry a cane at times when i can't carry a firearm or edged tool.

my choice is the Cold Steel Micarta Head City Stick


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#254202 - 12/02/12 07:20 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: Pete]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2103
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Pete
If you display a deadly weapon, esp. a gun or a knife, the police call this "brandishing".

Yes, you do not want to "brandish" a weapon (waving it around in the air, etc.) You want to "menace" with it. Which is perfectly OK if you are being assaulted and are defending yourself. Don't point you gun in the air, and for sure don't fire a warning shot (that is "negligence"). Aiming "to wound" can get you roasted for assault, even if it was you who were initially attacked - what might be said is that "So you're saying, Mr. victim, that the situation was not bad enough for you to defend yourself, so you only shot for the leg?" You don't want that. Instead draw it and take it to the "low ready" position. If the assailant advances, raise the gun to a nice center-mass aimed position and activate the laser if so equipped. This would be called "menacing" if you initiated the encounter. However, if you are responding to a serious assault against you, it is fine. NOTE: I am talking about Colorado law here - check with an attorney about your particular state laws, which may be different. Once the threat leaves, call the police immediately and report what happened with a brief to-the-point description. Don't ramble on. You want to say something like "I was accosted by a man with a knife demanding my wallet. I drew my firearm in self defense. He ran away. I was the victim. I will cooperate with your investigation after I have spoken with my lawyer." Then shut up and wait for the police to arrive. Say nothing more than you have already said. What you DON'T want to happen is for your assailant to call the police FIRST, and report that you pulled a gun on him out of the blue and he ran away in fear of his life.

One important point to remember, "Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you." What they don't mention in reading you your rights is that nothing you say can be used FOR you. That is called "hearsay" and won't be allowed in court. There are a few limited exceptions to this, but they are very limited (called "spontaneous emotional utterances" - something like that - I forgot exactly what the attorney who taught our class called them). So blabbing your mouth off to the police is NEVER a good idea. It can NEVER help you. They can't make things "easier on you" if you cooperate as they might promise. Those kind of negotiatons are later, when lawyers and DA's are involved, not the police. It is MUCH better to emotionally state your position in front of witnesses before the police arrive. A few utterances like, "Did you see that? He pulled a knife on me! I was scared to death. I thought he was going to kill me! Is anybody hurt? Did someone call the police?" If YOU say things like this to the police after you've calmed down and are describing the situation, it won't make it to court ("hearsay"). But if witnesses report you saying these things, that is admissable. Something good to know.

Everything I have said above, while somewhat focused on firearms, applies equally to anything considered a lethal weapon. Including a stick used as a weapon.

I learned a lot in that course taught by the self defense / shooting defense attorney! Nothing beats learning this stuff directly from someone who really knows. Don't depend on "hearsay" you find on the internet (including my post here, although I've made it as accurate as possible based on what I learned from the attorney).

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#254204 - 12/02/12 07:32 PM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: spuds]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
wiley - the Cold Steel sticks are nice choices.
Anything you buy from them is pretty rugged.


haertig - very good points on heresay and evidence. thanks for sharing.

spuds - all of this goes back to your original post. the issue for you is what kind of situation you are trying to defend against, and what type of protection do you feel comfortable using? then get good professional training and build up solid experience with your weapon of choice. but based on your original question ... a cane might be a good choice. and you can learn those skills from a martial arts instructor who specializes in escrima or kali from the Philippines.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (12/02/12 07:36 PM)

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#254220 - 12/03/12 01:09 AM Re: Cane,walking stick for defense,any users? [Re: haertig]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Originally Posted By: haertig
I was not saying you were thinking like that, it was intended to be a generic comment. My point being, if one is going to deploy something that is a lethal weapon in the eyes of the law, might as well deploy one that is most useful. A gun beats a stick, even though in the eyes of the law they are the same (when used as a weapon). But where you live does not allow you the better defensive option, so it's a moot point.


We were robbery/kidnap victims,you know where that leads,murder victims. We got out ONLY because the younger of the 2 balked when he smartened up almost instantly and realized he wasnt cut out for that.The old guy was perfectly willing to take it to the extreme.

When one balked,they fled.

So tell me,are you going to be concerned you may be sued? I coulda taken out the kid when he got the drop on us and the old man I doubt would have appeared at all.And if he had,he was toast at that point,double-aught toast.

So you see,its where you are coming from,where youve been,and where you are willing to go.

Money is nothing,and can be replaced if we lost it all post battle.Life cant be brought back.

No victim,nope,not again.And get this,we werent unarmed either,we were dropped on.I dont walk a campground carrying a shotgun,I cant legal carry a concealed gun.

So thats my point.You can cower and die,or you can fight and determine your fate to an extent.You never leave the scene with a perp,that has a nasty outcome of almost always being death.

A club,oh yeah,woulda been just the ticket to get the space covered I needed,not more than 20 feet,to get more than equal.2 clubs even better,the Mrs is known as Ninja B among our friends,I kid you not.Bear spray woulda done the trick too,we never camp without it now at hands reach. So sue me scum. From your cell.

Reviewing this,she said she was completely emotionally prepared to shoot em if she had to,had been FORCED to.... and regrets the weapon to do so wasnt available..for deterrence or more,their choice.

All we got was lucky as all get out we didnt die,I thank God,YMMV,but its all it was in my opinion.
==================================
In spite of this problem, my practical attitude is that a confident display of a weapon can have a strong deterrent effect. I'm not talking about firing a gun or slashing someone with a knife (or hitting with a stick) - but holding the weapon with confidence and poise. If you show that you know how to use it, you demonstrate mental confidence, and your would-be attackers think they could get seriously hurt, then they may re-consider.

Absolutely,I agree 100% that deterrence works ( It has for me) when you do just what youve posted,I dont scare now,I get MAD and it shows. Im not your scaredy cat victim,no no,not at all,Ive learned better.
==============================

Great discussion folks,and fine advice,all of it.I understand what you say Heartig on the legal aspect,and what to say and more importantly NOT to say.Ive read up/researched plenty on it to not shoot my mouth off.LEO arent your friends at that point,your lawyer is.

Agree very much on some training,we have just the guy we could use too,the grandsons martial arts school(Oh yeah,every time he visits he has class time,guess why,LOL!) has all kinds of training and will customize to your needs,and that will be utilized for a few skills,points,handling.Had a little in the military,basic skills arent that tough as Pete knows.

Im thinking a cane type and a stick both have rather specific uses,stick for walking,cane for suburban,may as well get both,we are talking little cost really.


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