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#252445 - 10/30/12 06:05 PM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: RNewcomb]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5237
Loc: SOCAL
The HMS Bounty that just sank was built for the 1962 movie and was a more modern ship that looked like one built in the 18th century. The original HMS Bounty was burned/scuttled off Pitcairn Island (South Pacific) following the mutiny of its crew. There's a third Bounty built for another movie.

It is important to know what the crew thought they knew before making judgments regarding their judgment. You don't know what you don't know.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#252447 - 10/30/12 06:50 PM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: Russ]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Originally Posted By: Russ
The HMS Bounty that just sank was built for the 1962 movie and was a more modern ship that looked like one built in the 18th century. The original HMS Bounty was burned/scuttled off Pitcairn Island (South Pacific) following the mutiny of its crew. There's a third Bounty built for another movie.

It is important to know what the crew thought they knew before making judgments regarding their judgment. You don't know what you don't know.
Here is what was known

That is a WOODEN sailing ship,it doesnt matter if it was built yesterday,a 180 foot wooden ship gets tossed about the sea like a rubber ducky.History is replete with hundreds,if not thousands of ships THAT SIZE and/or type sunk in Atlantic Storms.

A 180 foot wood boat has NO BUSINESS being sailed INTO a hurricane,PERIOD.Yet this one was. That was NOT a wise decision.How do I KNOW this? It was SUNK and people were KILLED. Like hundreds of others have been.

The storm had already killed 70 people ON LAND

They (Company and Captain) had DAYS warning and DAYS to take action KNOWING the KILLER storm was heading up the Atlantic coast.That boat belonged in PORT (See 2 ships below if you doubt it),not at sea.

There was a MANAGEMENT failure,How do I KNOW this? The ship was SUNK and people were KILLED.That is not a management success.That was not an act of God.It was a PEOPLE failure,a failure of poor decisions.

They were sent to sea by someone,and the Captain of the ship IS RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all aboard the ship,thats the way it works.If the CAPTAIN is asleep,it does not matter . The CAPTAIN is responsible for the ship,period.So says the Navy man.Who had that FACT pounded into his head.

Who made a smart choice,and who made a poor choice??
--------------------
A tale of 2 small ships

Tracie Simonin, director of the HMS Bounty Organization, said that the ship left Connecticut last week bound for Florida (STRAIGHT INTO THE STORM) and was in contact with the National Hurricane Center as it tried to skirt the massive storm barreling up the East Coast.

Two US Coast Guard helicopters rescued 14 of the ship’s 16 crew members early Monday morning. The Coast Guard is still searching for the two missing crew (We KNOW at least one dead), a service spokesman said.
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Powerful storm surges from Superstorm Sandy caused a nearly 170-foot water tanker to run aground in Staten Island, N.Y., on Monday night.

The front third of the tanker is grounded into Front Street. The city's waterfront was largely destroyed, which includes a number of businesses on the water.

The 168-foot tanker was moored about a mile away when Sandy's powerful force propelled it toward land.

No one was on the tanker and no one was hurt as a result of it running aground.

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#252458 - 10/30/12 07:51 PM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: TeacherRO]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
All I can say is that Rescue Swimmer better get a promotion and a nice shiny medal. 14 people in one op?? Out- freaking - standing.

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#252460 - 10/30/12 08:02 PM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: TeacherRO]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Gotta hand it to the Coast Guard,they are exceptional!

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#252463 - 10/30/12 08:13 PM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: spuds]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: spuds

A 180 foot wood boat has NO BUSINESS being sailed INTO a hurricane,PERIOD.Yet this one was.

I have seen no evidence it sailed into or towards the hurricane.

It was heading south to a port in Florida out of the way of wherever the storm might go. At some point there was a major failure (steering casualty?) and the ship could not proceed.

At that point the questions were (1) could the failure(s) be repaired, (2) would the storm skirt close enough to threaten the ship? If No and Yes then the Captain would have to abandon ship once it was clear #1 would not happen before #2. I've seen no information as to how long they spent trying to effect repairs but they were apparently in communication at this time.

It's worth remembering that the forecast track of the storm changed substantially over the weekend. The planned course may have been well east of the forecast storm track when the ship departed. Having a storm change track into your stranded location is not the same as sailing towards a location the storm is known to be approaching.

Quote:

That was NOT a wise decision.

One other thing to consider is that staying in port may not have been an option. The Harbor Master may have ordered larger ships out to sea. Wildman probably knows the rules here much better than the rest of us.

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#252486 - 10/31/12 12:09 AM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen
One other thing to consider is that staying in port may not have been an option. The Harbor Master may have ordered larger ships out to sea. Wildman probably knows the rules here much better than the rest of us.


Interesting, the Harbor Master can make a final call such that the captain has no say? In this case, at least one person died after a ship headed out into a hurricane. I'm sure this is not the first case. So, we have precedence here indicating people's lives are at stake. I'm thinking the captain has got to have the final say, given the captain is responsible for the safety of all aboard. I'd like to know how this really works.
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If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#252495 - 10/31/12 01:41 AM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: spuds]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7066
Loc: southern Cal


That is a WOODEN sailing ship,it doesnt matter if it was built yesterday,a 180 foot wooden ship gets tossed about the sea like a rubber ducky.History is replete with hundreds,if not thousands of ships THAT SIZE and/or type sunk in Atlantic Storms.

A 180 foot wood boat has NO BUSINESS being sailed INTO a hurricane,PERIOD.Yet this one was. That was NOT a wise decision.How do I KNOW this? It was SUNK and people were KILLED.

This is the first ever statement I have encountered suggesting that wooden ships are inherently unsafe vis--a-vis ships of other construction, like presumably plastic laminates and metal -steel, iron, and/or aluminum. Now really! A lot of wooden ships have sunk - true enough - but the fact that even more of them have been built over the years may have something to do with that.

During the years I was an archaeologist at Channel Islands National Park, a good bit of my work involved the study of the vessels that wrecked in and around the islands over the years. They were of all types - wood (mostly west coast lumber schooners), metal (iron, steel, and aluminum) typically of later vintage. They were also of all sizes - smallish fishing vessels and large commercial vessels. I have never seen or heard of anyone proposing or providing any data that would support the notion that any type of construction was inherently more or less "safe" than any other. Like aircraft, automobiles, and many other conveyances, the principal cause of wrecks and accidents can be attributed to operator error.

Others are posting some interesting information that does not square with your conclusions. Some of your assertions are questionable. Florida suffered negligible to minor impact from this storm, and, indeed, might have offered shelter from Sandy.

Aim, then fire...Your considerable energy would be better spent in careful and thorough investigation of the situations, rather than in emotional rants.

It is doubtless gratifying to point out the failing of others, but when you do so without adequate investigation and research, you come to erroneous, flawed conclusions. This perpetuates myth and stereotype, and does no one any good.
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Geezer in Chief

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#252502 - 10/31/12 02:03 AM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2186
Loc: Bluegrass
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen
That was a 180' ship, not a small boat, and 16 people aboard sounds like a bare-minimum crew even for a modern automated ship.

And large ships do not seek port in a hurricane's path. They'll just be beaten to pieces against the dock and then deposited inland. Even scuttling it in port ahead of time planning on salvage later seems wishful thinking, although I think it's done as a last resort sometimes.

The ship left port last Thursday to void the storm. I haven't seen mention of when the critical equipment failure (steering?) occurred. SOS was Sunday evening. Not clear when ship was abandoned.

For reports I read online (and yes, I admit the info is possibly incorrect), it appears steering went out, then some somehow the pumps weren't able to keep up with the water. Sounds like 2 or 3 were swept overboard, then the rest of the crew went to life rafts. 1 of the overboard managed to get to a raft. The other 2 didn't. Last I read, 1 body was recovered.

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#252515 - 10/31/12 06:25 AM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: MDinana]
spuds Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/12
Posts: 822
Loc: SoCal Mtns
Ok Hiker,you win.Im obviously a mean hateful person insensitive of someones feelings and the decisions they made that KILLED.

It was a brilliant plan,in a very safe wooden ship and alls well that ends well.We all know wooden sailing ships are as safe as modern steel diesel powered ships.Cant argue with that.

Sorry,but in my business I make life or death decisions that can affect you,your wife,husband,Mom,Dad all the time.

I make them Quickly,I dont dawdle.I base them on what is before me and on historical knowledge.And its often without all the facts I'd like,but I do it.Based on what IS known.

I do it all the time so people dont die,and they DONT.

Now if your experience doesnt involve doing same,you wont grasp how others can/do make JUDGEMENT calls all the time as a matter of course.

Here's one,X took an order,and screwed it up by a factor of TEN.

Went straight to my boss,called in BIG BOSS,order was NOT FOLLOWED and cancelled on the spot by me,why? Because it could have KILLED that person.

What did Big Boss say when I said How can someone do such a thing?

Reply-X IS STUPID.Thats a quote.

We didnt have the luxury of delaying,nor was it sent off to a committee to do a 6 month investigation,X was OUTTA THERE!

Or I could just say Kum by ya (I dont know what X was thinking,poor thing),let it ride for 3 days,let someone DIE and let it go.

Your choice.

Me,I can call a spade a spade and see the obvious,and act on it.And stand by it.

And people dont die because I do.

And thats how lives get saved,and lost.

Now Im done with it.

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#252521 - 10/31/12 07:52 AM Re: #1 things not to do in a hurricane [Re: TeacherRO]
chaosmagnet Online   content
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3225
Loc: USA
Please tone down the rhetoric in this thread. PM me or one of the other mods if you have any question about what I mean.



chaosmagnet

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