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#243702 - 03/23/12 08:50 PM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: ]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: Snake_Doctor
The Chlorine dioxide tablets don't impress me. They take $ hours to work and in the desert I may not have that much time for myself or an injured person.


The 4 hour wait time is only for very cold and opaque water (which is hardest to treat). Water that is clear only needs 30 minutes (same as Potable Aqua)

Here is the treatment chart for MP-1 (Chlorine Dioxide).



It's worth keeping in mind that standard Potable Aqua is an iodine based treatment, and iodine is ineffective against Crypotsporidium. Whereas, Chlorine Dioxide will kill Crypotsporidium. That's why Chlorine Dioxide has become the new standard (and why even Potable Aqua has introduced their own line of Chlorine Dioxide tablets).

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#243705 - 03/23/12 08:54 PM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: Paul810]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Paul810
Originally Posted By: Snake_Doctor
The Chlorine dioxide tablets don't impress me. They take $ hours to work and in the desert I may not have that much time for myself or an injured person.


The 4 hour wait time is only for very cold and opaque water (which is hardest to treat). Water that is clear only needs 30 minutes (same as Potable Aqua)

Here is the treatment chart for MP-1 (Chlorine Dioxide).



It's worth keeping in mind that standard Potable Aqua is an iodine based treatment, and iodine is ineffective against Crypotsporidium. Whereas, Chlorine Dioxide will kill Crypotsporidium. That's why Chlorine Dioxide has become the new standard (and why even Potable Aqua has introduced their own line of Chlorine Dioxide tablets).


Thanks again, Paul. So much to learn!!
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#243711 - 03/23/12 09:32 PM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: bacpacjac]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
Originally Posted By: Paul810
The 4 hour wait time is only for very cold and opaque water (which is hardest to treat). Water that is clear only needs 30 minutes (same as Potable Aqua)

I think this the primary reason that chemical treatment makes the most sense after filtration as opposed to before.

Originally Posted By: bacpacjac
For this kit, just in case, Dennis. And research of course. When I came home with a Frontier filter today, my husband laughed and said "you need help" and then asked to see it. :-)

My only concern with the chemical treatment / filter straw set-up is that you'd end up doing things in a somewhat backwards manner; you'd have to chemically treat the dirty water and then filter it.

For myself, I'd probably forego the filter straw and simply chemically treat the cleanest water I could collect with a simple pre-filter (bandanna, coffee filter, etc).
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#243717 - 03/23/12 11:41 PM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: Denis]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
" My only concern with the chemical treatment / filter straw set-up is that you'd end up doing things in a somewhat backwards manner; you'd have to chemically treat the dirty water and then filter it.

For myself, I'd probably forego the filter straw and simply chemically treat the cleanest water I could collect with a simple pre-filter (bandanna, coffee filter, etc)."

You may well prove to have the best approach for me too, Denis. I'm going to give this combo a whirl for a while and see how it goes.
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#243720 - 03/24/12 01:10 AM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: bacpacjac]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6482
Loc: southern Cal
I use a Pur Hiker occasionally to process water, but I really prefer to boil. Simple, effective,and you get a nice cup of tea into the bargain.

The worst water I ever treated was stream water in Canyon de Chelly, where we were doing a project that required us to hike in and stay for days at a time. The water was undoubtedly contaminated. There were herds of sheep and dwellings upstream, none of which sported so much as an outhouse. The water (too thick to drink and too thin to plow) first sat overnight to settle the sediment, was decanted and boiled. Over several weeks, this worked just fine - no illness or tummy problems.

Recommendations for boiling times are all over the map. I have seen statements that as much as five minutes of a full boil are required. I seem to do fine just bringing the water to a rolling boil, and then chilling it. There have been times when I have consumed untreated water, figuring that my first priority was to make it back to town, whereupon I could deal with whatever illness might develop. As far as I know, I have never been ill from contaminated water.
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#243723 - 03/24/12 01:33 AM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: hikermor]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: hikermor
I use a Pur Hiker occasionally to process water, but I really prefer to boil. Simple, effective,and you get a nice cup of tea into the bargain. water.


Excellent point, Hikermor. 2 birds, 1 stone. Love that approach!

Originally Posted By: hikermor

The worst water I ever treated was stream water in Canyon de Chelly, where we were doing a project that required us to hike in and stay for days at a time. The water was undoubtedly contaminated. There were herds of sheep and dwellings upstream, none of which sported so much as an outhouse. The water (too thick to drink and too thin to plow) first sat overnight to settle the sediment, was decanted and boiled. Over several weeks, this worked just fine - no illness or tummy problems.


Yuck! But it just goes to show that patience is a virtue, especially in survival.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
Recommendations for boiling times are all over the map. I have seen statements that as much as five minutes of a full boil are required. I seem to do fine just bringing the water to a rolling boil, and then chilling it. There have been ti As far as I know, I havewater.


When my niece was born 13 years ago, they said 5 min. when my son was born almost 9 years ago, they said 10. When my nephew came along 6 months later it was back to 5. When his sister arrived 2 years later it was "just get it to a rolling boil." My MIL says it's all hooey. She may be right, but never got past the 10 mins.
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#243726 - 03/24/12 03:16 AM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: bacpacjac]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6482
Loc: southern Cal
Please clear something up for me, Jac. In the movies at least, the poor hubbie is dispatched to the kitchen to "boil Water" Why? I have done some training (no actual events) in emergency childbirth and I don't recall any specific need to boil... I can understand the need for sterile cloth and wraps, however. Is that why? If that is the case, I believe longer boiling times are justified, five minutes and up, because you are facing different organisms, some of which are quite resistant to heat.

I can't find my latest edition of Medicine for Mountaineering, but I believe the author advocates just bringing the water to a minimum boil, at any altitude for drinking water. He also points out that milk is pasteurized at 165 degrees, well short of boiling (except on the summit of Everest)

So exactly why are we dispatched to the kitchen. To get us out of the way????
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#243729 - 03/24/12 03:39 AM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: bacpacjac]
Frisket Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 640
Purchase a Higher end (20-30$) Hip flask and carry it to boil water. I May replace the Small tin in my kit with one someday as the one I purchased to do the replacing found its way in my EDC pack filled with vodka. The crazy things that turn out in the end of plans.
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Nope.......

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#243730 - 03/24/12 03:50 AM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: hikermor]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Please clear something up for me, Jac. In the movies at least, the poor hubbie is dispatched to the kitchen to "boil Water" Why? I have done some training (no actual events) in emergency childbirth and I don't recall any specific need to boil... I can understand the need for sterile cloth and wraps, however. Is that why? If that is the case, I believe longer boiling times are justified, five minutes and up, because you are facing different organisms, some of which are quite resistant to heat.

I can't find my latest edition of Medicine for Mountaineering, but I believe the author advocates just bringing the water to a minimum boil, at any altitude for drinking water. He also points out that milk is pasteurized at 165 degrees, well short of boiling (except on the summit of Everest)

So exactly why are we dispatched to the kitchen. To get us out of the way????


Yes. It's to get you out of the way and keep you that way. I think. There was no boiling water when I gave birth but that was in a hospital where everything is sterile. Have to sterilize whatever you cut the cord with? But then, you don't need to cut the cord, just clamp it off, if I remember correctly. Maybe we need an ETS emergency childbirth refresher thread?

We had to boil water for bottles because my son wouldn't latch to breast feed.
_________________________
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#243731 - 03/24/12 03:55 AM Re: Water Treatment: Chem or Filter? [Re: Frisket]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Frisket
Purchase a Higher end (20-30$) Hip flask and carry it to boil water. I May replace the Small tin in my kit with one someday as the one I purchased to do the replacing found its way in my EDC pack filled with vodka. The crazy things that turn out in the end of plans.


Unless we're camping, I usually use either a SS water bottle, SS cup, canteen cup or a can to boil. A flask with vodka sounds like a great addition to our family BOB though!
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