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#241344 - 02/17/12 01:44 AM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: JBMat]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: JBMat
My main beef is the people who sit on their ample behinds and loudly wonder where "the Government" is and "why they are taking so long" to help. This was said to me, while I was in uniform no less, passing out food and water. Said lardbutt was whining about having to walk 250m to pick up food/water. Guess he thought we were Dominoes and would deliver to his door, fresh and hot in 30 minutes after the disaster.

These are the people who need a swift kick to their hindquarters to get moving and do something for themselves.


Amen to that.

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#241347 - 02/17/12 01:48 AM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: ILBob]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: ILBob
My suspicion given the target audience for the book is that it tends to seriously overstate just how well government has handled past disasters.


There's the Katrina Exception and then there's literally everything else. We have a pretty good country, here, we really do, and despite all of our griping and such about government being this bad thing or that bad thing, the reality is that I don't know anyone who goes into emergency services in government who does not genuinely want to help, and that goes all the way up the chain. We all have our quibbles with how things are run, but in the end, to quote Bruce Springsteen in his latest song, "We take care of our own...wherever this flag is flown."

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#241397 - 02/17/12 05:55 PM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: MartinFocazio]
Meadowlark Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 154
Loc: Northern Colorado
Thanks for the link.

I can vouch for people being almost too calm during disasters. During the 9/11 attack in Arlington, I was staying at a hotel a couple blocks away. What was my first reaction? To take a quick shower, dress, gather my things for an appointment, and walk outside to see if there was anything I could do to help.

There was smoke and sirens, but no panic. People were slowly filing out of buildings, some of them in uniform, sitting on the grass and being counted like it was an elementary school fire drill.

Others were walking along the roads, carrying their work jackets, shoes, and briefcases. No one was freaking out. There were very long but orderly lines at payphones, as no one's cells were working.

I do remember that the shops suddenly were closing, with hastily scribbled signs taped to the doors. I found one guy who'd wandered from section "E" of the Pentagon who was in a bit of a daze, and we went looking for something for him to drink. The Starbucks was now closed, as were other places, so we kept on walking. I kiddingly said, "If the MacDonalds down the street is closed, then we'll know it's the end of the world." But happily it was open, packed with quietly murmuring people.

Even the foreigners who were stepping off tour buses on the street were calm, if a bit confused. The only people who seemed outwardly worried were the evacuating USA Today employees, one of whom -- a short, frazzled middle-aged woman -- bumped into me and exclaimed I should get away from their building because, "It could be next!"



I'm sure every disaster is different, but it's somewhat reassuring to know that people don't always act like what we see in films, etc.

Looking back, I'm still amazed that I didn't drop everything and get out of the hotel A.S.A.P. It's like there was a bit of a lag in my mental process, something that went along the lines of, "Yes, there is some sort of danger going on, but I need to do this first."

You might think you'll know how you'll react in any given situation, but this taught me that you don't REALLY know until the moment something happens.



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#241398 - 02/17/12 06:07 PM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: MartinFocazio]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: MartinFocazio
There's the Katrina Exception and then there's literally everything else...We all have our quibbles with how things are run, but in the end, to quote Bruce Springsteen in his latest song, "We take care of our own...wherever this flag is flown."

In just the past decade or so, the pace and scale of disasters we have witnessed has really seemed to have ramped up. Events we have never seen or which only happen once every century or two seem to be coming with more frequency. Many of these mega disasters are beyond any ability to effectively cope with, so you just try to do the best you can, but we remember them because we saw the minute-by-minute coverage on CNN and wondered where the cavalry was.

For the more "normal" stuff, I agree. I think organized emergency response and relief has worked remarkably well for us.

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#241406 - 02/17/12 07:42 PM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: Arney]
acropolis5 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 358
You could fairly accurately say that a form of (limited) Martial Law was instituted in the 1864(?), N.Y.C. ,Civil War Draft Riots (The Five Points War), when the U.S. Navy shelled lower Manhattan from naval vessels in the harbor and regular army toops staged a march, to demonstrate contol, through the Five Points. That was the deadliest riot in all U.S. history.
Again in the wake of the S.F. Earthquake, as noted,and in ~1968, in the Detroit and Newark riots and finally, in post Katrina N.O., there were "imposed" instances of Martial Law, e.g. Federal troops as police, wholesale disarming of civilians, Shoot-to-Kill orders where arson or sniping was suspected. I do not count the use of Federal Troops to enforce school integration , because those actions were taken to enforce lawful orders of the Courts vindicating Civil Rights.
Other than the Whiskey Rebellion and under Reconstruction, in the sucessionest States, those are the only instances of Martial Law I can remember in U.S. history. Albeit, I'm sure I've missed a few. Query if you should count the use of the Army in the West after the Mexican war, against Native Americans in the Indian Wars and against the Huks, et al in the Phillipines Islands. Those were American territory, but won by conquest?

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#241410 - 02/17/12 08:07 PM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: hikermor]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: hikermor
In that regard, I think of the motorcycle patrolman, speeding to his duty station in the predawn darkness immediately after the initial shock in the 1994 Northridge quake, found that a highway overpass had collapsed - the hard way. From what I have seen of the public service workers around here, they are pretty darn competent and go all out in emergencies.

I have only been involved in one disaster in my life. And that was small scale. Two trains came around a bend at normal speed and hit head-on. Evidently, one of them was not supposed to be there. They hit directly under a busy highway overpass that eventually melted into an unusable mess.

I was a paramedic at the time. There was a massive traffic jam. Not of civilian vehicles, but of emergency vehicles. My ambulance and lots more were deadlocked amongst other ambulances, firetrucks, police cars, utility vehicles, etc. It didn't take long for all of us to abandon the roadways and start driving across the fields to get to the scene. I was quite impressed with the speed and size of the response. Unfortunately, there was nobody to save. The people in the front of the trains were long gone, and the ones in the back simply stepped off unharmed after the movement finally stopped (these were long freight trains, not passenger trains, and no hazardous materials thankfully). The front of the trains were piled up into a multi-story teepee looking mess that burned and melted the overpass.

This was a Friday evening. The train people cleaned a hole through the mess and the local road crews built a brand new road through that hole bypassing the melted overpass. This was all constructed and in use by Monday mornings rush hour. That was quite an impressive response from these hard working guys. This was not a dirt road bypass. It was a fully paved and lined four lane bypass.

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#241411 - 02/17/12 08:09 PM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: MartinFocazio]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Don't forget the bonus marchers.

Although DC has different rules about the use of troops in what should be a LE role, the extreme brutality involved (led by none other than General Doug MacArthur (the father of "I will return" MacArther) and one George S. Patton, was a pretty good example of de facto if not actual martial law in action.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

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#241451 - 02/18/12 06:44 AM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: MartinFocazio]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1576
A very good find, Martin. Thanks! Stuff like this should be a part of our preparation. We can equip ourselves with tools and materials, but equipping ourselves with knowledge about how they act in disasters can be invaluable. That seems like the missing part of the equation for me. Too many people have Mad Max in their mind when they think about disaster prep. A chapter like this is a much needed corrective.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do like the movie. "Bust a deal, face the wheel" - who could argue with that? But let Hollywood stay on the silver screen.

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#241455 - 02/18/12 11:42 AM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: ILBob]
Finn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 173
Loc: Colonial Heights, VA
Hi,

I believe that was "Dugout Doug", not his father...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

My two cents...

I've experienced several earthquakes & hurricanes and industrial explosions (at a distance in my youth). The overwhelming response of those involved was calmness. That said, after August's earthquake in Louisa Co., VA, the customers in my store were confused and very calm, while across the street at WM, the customers began shouting, throwing away their items and ran from the store in a panic.

The media continues to blast the public with cause for panic. Remember the H1N1 Scare? No real threat to most Americans, but it caused a flurry of scared behavior. MRSA? The proportion of those affected was very small. Oddly, "The Simpsons" addressed this in an episode with cat flu.

The dumbing of America continues and the greater public may fall victim to the hype and panic one day. Maybe not,but it concerns me.
_________________________
People don't like to be meddled with.
~River Tam

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#241460 - 02/18/12 04:42 PM Re: MUST READ: ANTICIPATING HUMAN BEHAVIOR... [Re: Finn]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
A few years ago I was giving an election worker training class (hence mostly middle age or older) and we were struck by an obvious tremor, a sharp sudden jolt that made our projector bounce around and fuzzed up our Powerpoint briefly. Not a peep from anyone as things settled down to normal.

We had a smart phone and accessed the USGS website and announced to the group at the end of the presentation that we had just been smacked by a Richter 4 something, epicenter about forty miles to the north.

Earthquakes are easier to handle if you have some experience with them. The Big One will be a little different, but we will be well practiced.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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