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#239095 - 01/11/12 06:32 AM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: Arney]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2131
Loc: Great Plains
Originally Posted By: Arney


Cody is an expert on aboriginal culture and primitive living. It's not surprising that his approach seems "extreme" but that's probably because his paradigm of "normal" out in the bush is not the same as ours. It may not come out in the show, but to me, Cody is more about living in the bush while Dave is more about surviving the bush and getting back to civilization.


I don't know him personally but that's pretty much the way my friend described him. He wants to live with nature, not fight it as Dave advocated. Cody does live in a house but it's off grid; no well, limited use of electricity, etc. And he does spend a lot of time living off the land using just primitive tools and skills.

I too would love to be able to study under Cody Lundin. There aren't a lot of people with his depth of knowledge and experience with regards to aboriginal skills. Probably the only guy I'd rather train with would be Ray Mears. He's also skilled in the primitive stuff but I like to wear shoes! grin
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#239096 - 01/11/12 06:52 AM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: Frisket]
buckeye Offline
life is about the journey
Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 152
Loc: Ohio
I have read two of his books (two of the first I ever read on kit building and preparedness) and found them insightful. I find Dual Survival more entertaing that most other shows on TV (though it's no Survivorman). I imagine myself more like Dave (heck, we're both from southeasten Ohio and he's like a lot of my old high school buds).

I'm a bit torn when considering Cody's philosophy. As others here have noted, I feel he's provided ample disclaimer on not to follow his lead re: his almost lack of preparedness -- at least gear-wise -- what I would almost call a lack of common sense (like I or anyone I know would go on a hike without shoes, Really?).

But, at the same time, I can appreciate and respect his choices. When faced with a significant, perhaps long-term hardship, I think Cody is well prepared, especially from a knowledge standpoint, from his daily minimalist lifestyle. Say the grid goes down for an extended period, no relief is available, I doubt Cody would even notice. Does he even need much money? He could probably susbsit for years starting out with $1,000.

A couple thing I've taken away from the show are:
  • Knowledge is key. Knowing how to make the situation bettter with whatever you can find is invaluable. (Cody)
  • It's still smart to have some basic equipment ahead of time and be experienced in how to use that equipment. (Dave)

I feel that since most of us probably don't have the luxury of being prepared in that way of life and with the level of experience Cody has, we would certainly notice. I have no idea if Cody has a wife or family, if he does, I am sure he had his lifestyle before he had them, so they knew going in what they would be accustomed to.

I know much of my preparation is as much or more to support my wife/kids/immediate family rather than my personal well-being. Having to work at a "regular" job daily to make ends meet, having a wife (who also works outside the home) and kids to provide for, kids to put through traditional school and college, a mortgage to pay (way too much mortgage given the way the economy has fallen), a car loan to pay, insurances, ever increasing taxes and tax rates to contend with.... and then somewhere along the way I decided I better start preparing for some level of self-sufficeincy.... it's like I''m in so deep, I just want to survive another day.

So, given that I have basically set goals to keep my family fed and sheltered, get my kids educated, and maybe get a little enjoyment out of life along the way, should natural disaster or whatever threaten that, it's a lot more costly for me to preare than someone like Cody.


So, to your point about "Harming the message", I think if people let themselves fantasize or perhaps romanticise that they could just be like Cody, I would agree that they would likely be in for a rude awakening, or, unfortunately, much worse.

To your point about balance, I think many will see it that way. I've certainly concluded quite a while ago, it's not a matter of either / or, or which one is wrong or right. Rather's it's how we blend the knowledge with the tools.


Actually, isn't that often an underlying theme of many of the discussion here, especially when wanting to help those new to the forum, that it's both; knowledge and equipment? One without the other is meaningless to me - a waste of time and resources. So, I think for many people who tune into the show purely for its entertainment value, they may not quite "get it" and I would like to see more emphasis in the show on pounding home the idea that it's got to be both.

A good way that I've found to convy it, and it's how i got my wife to start supporting my (now our) efforts to be a bit more self-sufficient, is to disucuss it in terms of insurance (something I had to be taught long ago). This was a woman who literally used to complain if I bough an extra can of baked beans or soup to have on hand. "it wasn't on the list" is what I would hear as she looked over the grocery receipt. Being so frustrated, I finally discussed with her about all the insurances we had: home, car, health, life, disability, etc. When she agreed that they were valuable, then it was realtively eas to say, should we have some "food insurance", a few extras now and then to have on hand. We've been able to build from there.

Perhaps, for what it's worth, the show could build on that.


Regards,

buckeye


P.S. This post is why i don't respond much, I tend to ramble on quite a bit. Apologies, but it's late, I'm tired, it's been a long year already (yes, I know it's only the 11th day) and when I get this way I tend to wax a bit philosophic.
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#239101 - 01/11/12 11:23 AM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: Phaedrus]
Frisket Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 640
This is the reason I joined up to this forum smile Well thought out level headed thinking is hard to come across anymore on the net.

Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
I'd be pretty surprised if Cody has convinced the lemmings to march en masse, and barefoot, off a cliff


There is a reason they are called lemmings wink

Originally Posted By: Chisel
I also lean more towards Dave philosophy than Cody's but Cody has made it very clear , repeatedly, that he doesn't expect others to do what he does. He said that he trained himself for years to go barefoot and it is not something others should simply follow. So, IMHO, he has done his part.

What I saw in Dual survival is that it was Dave who saved the day repeatedly.


As Bacpacjac Stated The Do as I say not as I do Attitude is very difficult to accomplish especially with the way Cody acts on the Television show. I often get the feeling he comes off as "Im gonna tell you not run out barefoot but hey look how much better Im doing then him in this situation" Which as an example is rare in the show since he is usually slowing down or completely changing the course of travel simply from this. Not to mention his constant "Im transforming Dave to be like me" attitude.

I also agree that Dave Saves the day Multiple times. I feel Daves Idea Is "Survive to get rescued is the main goal do what you need to get out" And Codys Idea is "Survive to be one with mother nature then rescue may come soon or w.e it doesnt matter let me eat my Bugs and Berrys"

Originally Posted By: Dagny

I thought Cody Lundin's books were well done. On his website, he talks about the "Dual Survival" show and that viewers should beware:

http://www.codylundin.com/survive_tv.html


I honestly think today While TV may not Convey the truth it speaks louder then Books.

He mentions Jacques Cousteau in the 60s But Did he forget in the 50s he was hell bent on learning by destroying?


Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Because Cody's attitude is so different from the survival show norm it's not only entertaining but offers a different perspective - because Cody handicaps himself the way he does he has to approach things in a different way. Knowing about a different approach can give you options and options are good.


While I Completely Understand and believe in what your saying towards learning about difference approaches I dont think its very smart to deliberately handicap oneself when life is at stake and displaying this form of thought while at the same time teaching to survive sounds contradictory.


Originally Posted By: Arney
It may not come out in the show, but to me, Cody is more about living in the bush while Dave is more about surviving the bush and getting back to civilization.


100% agree.

Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
I too would love to be able to study under Cody Lundin. There aren't a lot of people with his depth of knowledge and experience with regards to aboriginal skills. Probably the only guy I'd rather train with would be Ray Mears. He's also skilled in the primitive stuff but I like to wear shoes! grin


I Highly Suggest Checking out some of les strouds work outside of survivorman, "Off The Grid" and "Snowshows And Solitude". laugh


Originally Posted By: buckeye
So, to your point about "Harming the message", I think if people let themselves fantasize or perhaps romanticise that they could just be like Cody, I would agree that they would likely be in for a rude awakening, or, unfortunately, much worse


Which is exactly my point. Its hard to think the people who set off to copycat Man Vs Wild Or Survivorman do anything but Fantasize about such things.
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#239103 - 01/11/12 01:21 PM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: Frisket]
Chisel Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1154
Not to hijack the thread, but I wish to see a future season of Dual Survivor starring Dave and (David Wendell). David is into primitive ways , somehow like Cody, but seems he will get along with Dave in a better way, and viewers will concentrate on the survival part of the show, not the hillarious differences, and will not be distracted by some of Cody's unconventional views.

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#239106 - 01/11/12 02:25 PM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: buckeye]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2913
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: buckeye
P.S. This post is why i don't respond much, I tend to ramble on quite a bit. Apologies, but it's late, I'm tired, it's been a long year already (yes, I know it's only the 11th day) and when I get this way I tend to wax a bit philosophic.


This post was on-topic, interesting (to me at least) and a positive contribution to the conversation. Please don't feel the need to apologize for a good post.


chaosmagnet

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#239113 - 01/11/12 04:51 PM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: Frisket]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 273
Loc: eastern oregon
first impressions can often be misleading.

after reading cody's book called "98.6" my flaky impression of him did a 180.

i consider that book one of the most useful survival guides i've read over the last 50 years.

additionally, cody isn't suggesting leaving your PSK or other technology behind. in fact, his book does a great job of showing how to put the basic kit together for the least cost, allowing anyone to be better prepared.

as Phaedrus said above: "Probably the only guy I'd rather train with would be Ray Mears."

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#239137 - 01/12/12 12:59 PM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: Frisket]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2131
Loc: Great Plains
Originally Posted By: Frisket


Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
I too would love to be able to study under Cody Lundin. There aren't a lot of people with his depth of knowledge and experience with regards to aboriginal skills. Probably the only guy I'd rather train with would be Ray Mears. He's also skilled in the primitive stuff but I like to wear shoes! grin


I Highly Suggest Checking out some of les strouds work outside of survivorman, "Off The Grid" and "Snowshows And Solitude". laugh


I've seen those fine programs and they're great! Not the equal of "doing" alongside but as close as I'll ever get a chance to get!
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#239140 - 01/12/12 01:55 PM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: NightHiker]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6489
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: NightHiker

Although I can understand their argument and even see its merits, I take what I consider a balanced approach and draw from both schools of though. Basically, I'm an advocate of not handicapping yourself unnecessarily but realize that you may find yourself handicapped by circumstances. I try to stack the deck in my favor as much as possible and that entails carrying the right gear but also being able to make do without. One easy example is that my wilderness kit has both a Bic lighter and a backup fero rod but if I have to I can start a fire using one of the several primitive techniques I've practiced to the point of confidence.



I'm with you on this. It is important to be aware of alternative, more "primitive" techniques, because they will often come in handy. It adds more depth to your skill set and gives you alternatives when modern technology isn't available.

Lots of fairly objective studies of "primitive" technologies show that they are actually pretty effective. A freshly knapped edge on a chert or obsidian flake is often extremely sharp - in the case of obsidian, it is sharper than the edge on a steel tool - the drawback is that it is extremely fragile and resharpening is required after just a few uses. Resharpening is not a big deal if you know what you are doing. Stone axes are very effective at felling moderate size trees, but require entirely different motor habits from those employed with steel axes.

Of course, steel replaced stone rather quickly when it became available to groups the world over, so modern tech definitely has something going for it. So live with modern technology, but be aware of old ways. You can find the river with your GPS, or you can watch the flight of flocks of birds - both will get you there.
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#239201 - 01/13/12 04:37 AM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: thseng]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: thseng
there are two distinct "schools of thought".


I concur. I fit more into the modern technique school of thought, but I would love study more of the primative skills. It's like learning defensive shooting skills, but no unarmed or medical skills, or being a programmer but not knowing how a hard drive works.

What I get uncomfortable with is when an instructor goes too far into one or the other. Modern skills does involve turning a surplused M113 into an RV, but.. yeah, no. Likewise, the "you have a knife and a pair of pants" school of thought is just extremist.

On the topic of Lundin, he's kind of a mixed bag. Philosohphically, I agree with a lot of what he says, and when he's not playing a charactiure (sp) of himself he's not in the knife and pants school of thought. Still, I want shoes on my instructor. I've stepped into and on things I wouldn't otherwise be able to, and been very glad to have them. That, and I hate hot weather, a desert would pretty much end me.
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When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#239207 - 01/13/12 09:01 AM Re: When Does Image Harm Message? [Re: ironraven]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: ironraven
Originally Posted By: thseng
there are two distinct "schools of thought".

On the topic of Lundin, he's kind of a mixed bag.


Some of the courses offered by his organization are pretty hardcore hunter/gatherer stuff (at least according to the course description). But Lundin communicates over and over again the importance of carrying a modern PSK and at any moment using whatever works best.

To be frank, some of the "back to nature" and "the more you know, the less you carry" school of thoughts makes me sick. Nothing wrong with a skilled person making do with a pair of pants and what nature provides, but those that are capable of such stunts have spent years and years learning and training. Before you spend time learning all the finer points of making a bow fire and finding tinder when it's wet everywhere you should have a black belt in using lighters and vaseline cotton balls.

On the other end, you have the "all you need is your altoids tin box PSK and a space blanket". Equally wrong. A PSK must be adjusted to fit the environment. A space blanket in a pocket is sorely inadequate for many environments.

Cody has a very well balanced and well thought out balance between old and new, mixing knowledge about physics with ancient skills - whatever works best for the moment.


Edited by MostlyHarmless (01/13/12 09:02 AM)

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