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#238409 - 01/01/12 10:23 AM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 531
Loc: UK

Jeff Cooper's 4 basic rules of gun safety just seem wiser the more I know:

1 All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as
if they are.
2 Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to
destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is
unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3 Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the
target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly
responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4 Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at
anything that you have not positively identified.

qjs

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#238413 - 01/01/12 04:19 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: Pete]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
And maybe I should clarify a bit. Every situation is different. You always have to use your best judgment and try to read the situation. This is difficult without training for that specifically. Law enforcement officers spend extensive amounts of time training on that. In the SF CQB course, you spend almost three months learning to discriminate targets and only hit the right ones, the bad guys. One round on an innocent and you are dropped from the course. It doesn't matter that the innocent was behind the terrorist target. When people without that sort of training get into gunfights, it looks more like a gang war with bullets going everywhere.

As I said, every situation is different. If someone were breaking into my house, in order to protect my family, the first thing I will do is work the action on my pump 12 gauge, then yell out that I have already called the police, then I will call the police. I would rather not shoot in my house unless absolutely necessary. Most criminals are intent on surviving and not getting caught and will immediately vacate the premises.

If I found myself in the area while two armed people were threatening each other with firearms, I will seek cover and get as many other people to cover as possible. Then I will call the police. A gun coming out at this point will only make matters worse.

If someone is intent on killing, such as a workplace shooter or school shooter, there is no deterrence. They are usually intent on dying as well. You must eliminate the threat as quickly as possible in any way possible.

It is not natural for one human to kill another. There are strong psychological barriers to this. These barriers must be overcome, even in soldiers (I can quote a huge number of studies to support this) and they must be trained to overcome it. There is a process for doing this (see Bandura on "The Mechanisms of Moral Disengagement"). If someone is already carrying a gun and threatening (or trying) to kill, they have likely already gone through the process and are very willing to kill.

My usual choice is to be as non-threatening as possible until I have to take action, then I take the action necessary. This does not necessarily involve a gun, in fact even if I have one I will avoid pulling it if possible. In situations where you are likely to need a gun, once you pull it out you should be ready to use it.

Sorry for the psychobabble, but I am pursuing a PhD in Psychology. I know; it is an unusual combination of a former SF soldier and psychologist.

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#238478 - 01/02/12 05:14 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: gonewiththewind]
AKSAR Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1198
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Montanero
Sorry for the psychobabble, but I am pursuing a PhD in Psychology. I know; it is an unusual combination of a former SF soldier and psychologist.
Not psychobabble at all. It strikes me as a very well reasoned and intelligent approach. The SF soldiers and other spec ops folks I have met have generally been pretty smart folks. I'm sure you will do well with your psychology career.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#238483 - 01/02/12 06:19 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: AKSAR]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3436
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Not psychobabble at all. It strikes me as a very well reasoned and intelligent approach. The SF soldiers and other spec ops folks I have met have generally been pretty smart folks. I'm sure you will do well with your psychology career.


Agreed. By the way, I was surprised at where my bachelors in Psych took me -- I'm a network security consultant.

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#238496 - 01/02/12 10:22 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: gonewiththewind]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Montanero

Sorry for the psychobabble, but I am pursuing a PhD in Psychology. I know; it is an unusual combination of a former SF soldier and psychologist.


To me it sounds like a great combination - and a real asset to this forum smile

While I've been lurking and later posting at this forum I've had a shift from more gear focus towards the mental aspects related to survival situations. Anything from mental preparations to how people react under stress and discomfort (and how do I prepare to deal with that - both in myself and in others). Discussing gear is still great fun, but the really interesting stuff is now what's inside the skull.

So I really appreciate having someone with background in phsychology on board!


Edited by MostlyHarmless (01/02/12 10:22 PM)

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#239702 - 01/19/12 06:57 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: quick_joey_small]
Dan_McI Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 844
Loc: NYC
FWIW, NYC cops are required to have a twelve-pound trigger on their service pistols. This is what I was told, last week, by an NYC cop who is joining my range/club. I have no reason to doubt his statements. I have no issue with a minimum trigger-pull requirement for a carry pistol, but 12 pounds is so much that aim must suffer.

Also, NYPD officers can only practice on the NYPD range once a month, on the last Wednesday, with 100 rounds. See, at the bottom: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/training_nypd/firearm_tatics.shtml

The officer mentioned in the first paragraph told me the firing line I very crowded on these Wednesday practice sessions.

So, most NYC cops get little practice, one time a month, on a fixed line, with a 12 pound trigger. Lucky if they can hit anything when under stress.

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#239708 - 01/19/12 09:41 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: Dan_McI]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3436
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Dan_McI
twelve-pound trigger...practice...once a month...with 100 rounds


This is the dumbest flipping thing ever.

The New York Trigger comes from the days that NYPD was transitioning from .38 revolvers to Glocks. Officers were trained to start pulling the trigger on their revolvers during the drawstroke. This is, of course, a violation of firearms safety canon and incredibly stupid. When they transitioned to Glocks, officers were having NDs during their draws, sometimes shooting themselves in the leg. NYPD's solution wasn't to fix the gross flaws in their training program but to demand heavier trigger pulls.

I'm disgusted beyond belief that this idiocy continues.

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#239710 - 01/19/12 10:02 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: chaosmagnet]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1450
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
The New York Trigger comes from the days that NYPD was transitioning from .38 revolvers to Glocks. Officers were trained to start pulling the trigger on their revolvers during the drawstroke. This is, of course, a violation of firearms safety canon and incredibly stupid. When they transitioned to Glocks, officers were having NDs during their draws, sometimes shooting themselves in the leg. NYPD's solution wasn't to fix the gross flaws in their training program but to demand heavier trigger pulls.


If NYPD changed the equipment to accommodate outdated training, does this imply that the training remains the same? I hope this doesn't mean they still start pulling the trigger on the drawstroke.

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#239712 - 01/19/12 10:37 PM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: Bingley]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3436
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bingley
I hope this doesn't mean they still start pulling the trigger on the drawstroke.


I don't know if they still train that technique.

I'm a volunteer RSO for a shooting league with a lot of cops in it. One of our "go home" offenses is cover the trigger guard with your finger before you're on-target (there is no penalty for moving your finger onto the trigger and taking up slack during your press-out -- if you're on-target, you're good). We've expelled people from the league for repeat offenses.

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#239720 - 01/20/12 02:39 AM Re: A gunfight might not be like you expect it to be [Re: AKSAR]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2196
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: Montanero
Sorry for the psychobabble, but I am pursuing a PhD in Psychology. I know; it is an unusual combination of a former SF soldier and psychologist.
Not psychobabble at all. It strikes me as a very well reasoned and intelligent approach. The SF soldiers and other spec ops folks I have met have generally been pretty smart folks. I'm sure you will do well with your psychology career.

Ditto. One of my dad's good friends was a Vietnam vet SF guy. Ended up w/ a PhD in ... something. Criminal science or computer security or something. Anyway, working for the state of TX last I heard. His SF credo's go a long way, and a LOT of them are highly trained in a LOT of different fields (first aid, marksmanship, languages, explosives, communications, electronics, etc, etc, etc). You can't be an idiot and absorb that much information.

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